STFC-RAL-CR03: So there's a disclaimer. Lots of the pictures that are in the slides are Google. There's no reference to them. I'm just randomly Google for things. It's mostly just based off.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah, sorry for lack of credits. Whatever it is extracted from my own work in here is unpublished. But it's because I'm just not getting to it, not because it's not worth while publishing at some point
STFC-RAL-CR03: and wherever you miss informational plots or something, feel free to just shout, Get in touch or something. I'll try to provide things later where I can. I'm around
STFC-RAL-CR03: and yeah, again, this is always ill, quick, so I'll keep talking forever. It's a favorite subject of mine, but we'll have enough time for it. So intervene, and tell me to get on with this
STFC-RAL-CR03: moving on so outline. There's gonna be short introduction to the topic a bit about light sources that I went to this people in the past, have asked lots of questions about light sources.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The existing measurements. The question on why I am talking about this because I usually do at cesa
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then a bit of where we are at the moment, and summary.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Let's start with by walking on. And so
STFC-RAL-CR03: the the subject mentioned talking about rules to play for titanium in the enables which was covered in 2,000 years ago.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and they found a during off the public of itself, sort of years ago they found a villa in that village
STFC-RAL-CR03: that was well, partially at a library unit that was covered. completely burned down, focusedly covered in for ash after they started digging it out and dumping the first few 1,400 scrolls into the seat. So it was sort of.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They then realized what they were dumping to the scene, and they stopped for that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: If you want to see this villa, I still haven't seen the actual big site which I think early October that happens, I'm not gonna go there
STFC-RAL-CR03: but if you want to see a life size model of it. Some rich person in the Us. Called Getty had enough money to build a life size model. Will they be constructed as Ebila and I was there, and it's lovely. You think 2,000 year old laptop?
STFC-RAL-CR03: Well, they recovered from this for some 2,000 child scrolls. Few have been read to this day. Question as to why not read them for those who haven't seen this before? So this is a stereotypical old book in a stereotypical offered college library, as you would find it
STFC-RAL-CR03: problems in reconstruction. There is to be discoloration, that sort of thing. So you start looking at it from a from a reconstruction point of view, as a person wants the original material. And you start thinking, can I do something? Algorithms to reconstruct from Hercules look like this?
STFC-RAL-CR03: They are not to be found instead of but you can find them in what we elaborate, says 3 of them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: 200 years ago people did that in the days.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So what you see here is a scroll that was rolled up like so compressed under oath. Exclusion of exclusion of oxygen. Lots of heat leads to this turning into charcoal.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and if you had a piece of charcoal made from wood in your hands, you know it's reasonably brittle. It sort of comes it off in bits.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but it's they also feel solid.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is what these things look like and feel like. I have never felt one. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: comes with a bit of caution.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Why are we not reading them? The the subject? How have been carbonize all the way through? So they are hard. They are brittle. People have tried unrolling them, they because they are otherwise perfect, because, what you might be able to spy
STFC-RAL-CR03: somewhere down here, maybe.
STFC-RAL-CR03: is that there is some writing you might need to. That's visible is basically black on top. Great. So we know that the writing is still on there. But we
STFC-RAL-CR03: have to unroll those roles to actually see it. The problem is when you're trying to unroll them. What people have done for the past again. Sort of 200 years is they stick a sort of
STFC-RAL-CR03: what I want to call the librarian city onto the outside and scroll there to catch a weight and then sort of slowly unravel it. What happens is that scrolls on the outermost layers come off in typically single layers.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Problem is when you start rolling up from wait. So right? So the beginning of the scroll is in middle of scroll.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and, as you will find, is the further you go to the inside of the burn scroll, the more it tends to bring up in lumps. So what you see down here is that multiple layers come off and you start having sort of blocks of scrolling.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so mechanical unrolling, which is something that people still look at
STFC-RAL-CR03: isn't really a thing that people should still be looking at so far as good concern experience.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There is a very nice gentleman over in us on the West Coast who is trying to do things with chemistry. He's basically making his own subjects, and he's infusing them with sort of what I want to call it gelatine.
STFC-RAL-CR03: at which point they get soft and vital, and then you can start thinking about unrolling them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'll go into why, that isn't an option paper.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Quick into here again. This was not many times in Us. Lights. Why do I use light sources? I do a lot into X rays.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Light source provides lots of X-rays and typically also monochromatic X-rays which helps the my tools that have been involved.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Find the license just down the road in
STFC-RAL-CR03: and the Canadian.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So they're doing not so much Canada by as ulcer
STFC-RAL-CR03: I have personally worked at very high.
STFC-RAL-CR03: also worked at B 16, which, if I'm honest, is marketing much lower energy, but most importantly, lower flux. So you tend to get less problems with the intense high flux, and you get less heating up, less center, overload less everything.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And then Canadian light source again. That's a high energy, mind. It's supposed to be, because that's the mind we bought into.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's called a reasonably high flux. Again, because it's meant for imaging bigger things as fault table there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Whereas it's jet engines or something like well.
STFC-RAL-CR03: if there's a basis mixed statements of mixed but like we're being funded for a course, if you ever will, might ever think about doing it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There is pay for access available at most few months, if not all of them in the world.
STFC-RAL-CR03: At time advice you pay somewhere around 5,000 units of Metro, whatever they may be, for 8 h. Shift.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Let's see, all popped together.
STFC-RAL-CR03: All my sources do generally have a peer review process where you can apply for being time to say, I wanna do sign in. And this being done with these
STFC-RAL-CR03: objects, with these sensors doing this discovery, and they will then look at it. See how well, you've
STFC-RAL-CR03: hold your proposal and then give you the formal
STFC-RAL-CR03: so far as I can tell.
STFC-RAL-CR03: getting a successful application depends on previous applications that you had, and how successfully were a good business of publications that came with that because they are keen on getting publications and
STFC-RAL-CR03: and be speaking to be mind scientists at Bemeline that you want to work on.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You can get hold of them beforehand. That's the way to go, cause they will tell you what's possible or what's not possible. It very much depends on the person that you reach.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Sometimes you'll find the emails. I just said, it's either either overloaded or not interested. That really is how
STFC-RAL-CR03: the other thing that I find is that it really helps having an interesting product. That's something that the 9 scientists themselves like 2,000 year old phones, roles definitely take the box. Random X-ray diffraction measurements of makeup.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Let's not check the box.
STFC-RAL-CR03: which is my ecosystem paper access.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the other thing, I would say, for anyone who wants to apply
STFC-RAL-CR03: is sort of what he varies again by V-line, but also by persons at the V-line. It is very crucial that you get somebody in early, tell you what you can do or cannot do, gives you information about how things run.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Recording a beam line involves lots of machinery that needs to run automatically. You don't want to sit there 24 HA day because they will ask you to sit there 24 HA day if you've got that much mean time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So you want to be able to very quickly scope something up so that automatic.
STFC-RAL-CR03: If you can't get that figured out before men, then you're in for trouble. When you have each time we've had sessions that were fine.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and if you can't stop and overnight scan, you have to sit there overnight for 5 days. It's just not possible.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You also generally get discouraged from bringing too many people to be mine. So if you bring 3 or 4, they start saying that saturates them. That point is like, well, we we need to cover 5 days before I'll shift. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: existing methods. So going into this, this, we can actually see the Olympics down there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: These figures are from
STFC-RAL-CR03: a public agent that is, being able to find
STFC-RAL-CR03: in the early 2,000 2,000 early, 2,010 or something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: First measurements were done that were reasonably scientific on this so far that I can help before that much of what happened around material
STFC-RAL-CR03: was based on what librarians would do.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So they have a kind of scary. The press measurements that were done for things like possibly use X-ray emissions.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We should be subject, and then get X-rays out. And they tell you something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: What they found in these early measurements
STFC-RAL-CR03: in particular, in this subject.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That is basically a flake that fell off a scroll that was intensely X-rayed in Paris. And the guy who did this said, Can I have that because you don't really know where it from. You know that there's a metal on it. You can do measurements so that the protein is actually a great thing.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that is the only real subject that I'm aware of that we have. We're testing things with writing. And
STFC-RAL-CR03: they found that there's quite high concentration of lead in the writing that's not in the
STFC-RAL-CR03: Ct. Scans were done with these scrolls, and they couldn't see anything in terms of them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So absorption, difference negligible. But there is the proper contamination sort of past per 1,000 lead in being.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That was where I sort of vocation. We have other existing measurements that were then done by on the exclusion of the people who originally did this.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We're very grumpy about it. They bought lots of things for publications from 16 weeks with
STFC-RAL-CR03: one of the things they've done is face contracts. Ct.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so they shoot the next right way through the subject, and record full picture behind it at certain distance.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You do use monochromatic X-rays, and that gives you a handle on how phase propagates through your subject. so you can tell that this will get introduced with phase, the shift phase shift electron density in the subject.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So where you have lead, you expect
STFC-RAL-CR03: basically a different refractional index for the X-rays that go through as they propagate through. So therefore, you get something that is interference behind the object, and you can reconstruct that in principle.
STFC-RAL-CR03: in practice I find this really hard to believe they are weaving things from this. So you can see here which words they have decoded from this.
STFC-RAL-CR03: If if you can read. That's that's fine. I can't see that in there. If you want to read a word there, and you can really work there, that's like, with all black and white data, if you've ever had an old TV with an analog and 10 of them
STFC-RAL-CR03: but I don't see it. I would like to see more contrasts. That's where
STFC-RAL-CR03: piece this tape of all shoulders, so far as I can tell.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the problem I have with it is, if you think about the subject or subject. It's a structured, material sort of 100 micron size fibers in it, which equipment they're in random orientations. So you have a lot of things that introduce faith in propagation through it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Then, looking at minutia in the lead contradiction. I'm not sure is
STFC-RAL-CR03: a thing that can work. However, I'm not an expert. So maybe I'm just not getting the whole thing.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But that's where I fall short on this one.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So question is going on here. For those of you who don't know this yet I tend to
STFC-RAL-CR03: randomly walk in because of. I have walked randomly into a Google office sensor you 10 years ago. Now.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Michael wrote into discussion with Brent seals, who's a professor in Kentucky
STFC-RAL-CR03: does so computer image analysis algorithms. And he was designed at Ct scanner through the install, couldn't see anything in. It
STFC-RAL-CR03: was therefore desperate for some thoughts from people who actually do physics
STFC-RAL-CR03: or anything with materials. That's when I started looking at this and thought about doing what I want all the
STFC-RAL-CR03: basically to offer that I'm still on it. I'm not doing experts anymore this year, and it's, I think I've come to quite each sense to the team
STFC-RAL-CR03: with that. But I found other ways for it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So after that happened in 2,013. I had to wait 3 years. I was at Cern at the time. I spoke to lots of people at Cern. What you need to build an X-ray residency in particular, at the end I wanted is a center that's highly absorbing for high energy. X rates, or something like happens in Colorado.
STFC-RAL-CR03: it should be later resolved to deliver even image. So you're looking at something like, maybe pix timefrase type detectors would kind of try what detect control of it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I found those people at turn in principle that were X-rays at certain, but sadly, it never quite took off. Then I came to Ronald in 2,014, and I have stumbled into people from Diamond, and I won't stumble into the right person at Diamond.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then we've got bean time in 2,016.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Should go there first.
STFC-RAL-CR03: What we do there is we shoot at i. 12. So this behind energy line we shoot high energy X-rays into the subject. We look at it from the site rather than looking through them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So, rather than looking at absorption of the X-rays feel about what is fluorescence. So we get X-rays stimulated X-ray vision from the subject.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You shoot out an electron from an Nhl.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Another electron falls in you get specific energy problems through.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And that's the X-rays I would have in case of lead these X-rays for the Katie shells. It's 88, maybe, or just below
STFC-RAL-CR03: depending on where exactly
STFC-RAL-CR03: which means the reason we find logic, and this is the chance that they actually propagate through the rest of the subject that they come out. So when you have a full scroll, you should at the end of layers, and might be able to see the entries as they come out.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Otherwise you would walk away from
STFC-RAL-CR03: so hopefully, magically, images of the material composition show up here. This is what setup looks like at Diamond i. 12. Incident beam comes in from here. There's lots of light tubes. So X-rays come in. They're at such a high intensity that we want to avoid scattering them in the air.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So what you do is you put shielding around the 5 part of the X-rays so that you don't get random X-rays in in the whole room scattering into your detector because there is enough of them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So what you put in is slide tubes from and back, because the outgoing X-rays will do the same.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and there's an absorber somewhere back there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then you've got your subject in the middle ping hole there, and your favorite sensor over there. In my case, that's not many pixels, which is something that gets built
STFC-RAL-CR03: as is upside and downsides. It was available. People were happy to try and use it. I would say, walk with other departments and see how many people there are. It was really fun at the time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Process. We're pretty much made from prototype detectors and scraps. So TV group had a detector lying around that they were willing to use for this, and they set it up, and they calibrated it and everything.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They also have random shaped plates of solar. So if you go back to this picture.
STFC-RAL-CR03: you need to shield your detector from anything that say comes from here or from anyone else in the room. So this detector here is any tungsten tube
STFC-RAL-CR03: that was in 2017, in 2,016. We didn't have that. We have the detectors sort of planet in random bits of tungsten that we're flying around because at the time we didn't have material for it.
Chris Damerell: could I make a quick interruption?
Chris Damerell: So sorry? It's just that as one of the Zoom participants. We're not seeing your pointer and so what I'm seeing is the you know, the X ray being going through, and then a couple of arrows pointing inwards. So I'm not quite getting getting the picture. Is is it possible to show?
STFC-RAL-CR03: Don't know whether you can see that? Yes, you can. So incident X-rays are bright pink outgoing X-rays are sort of rose color
STFC-RAL-CR03: girls.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The subject is marked in red with a red arrow, and the detector is where the yellow arrow points.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You can see about shiny metal around it. All the shiny stuff that is tubes is Thompson.
Chris Damerell: Right? Thank you very much.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Again, that control was from any second attempt that we made 17 when we did this. It's like 16. We basically both team time during the calibration. Do you want to come over next week and try something? And everybody was on board?
STFC-RAL-CR03: So they did something. My absence, it seems to have worked, and
STFC-RAL-CR03: in the shape that they saw that image from the subject they couldn't quite sell from where
STFC-RAL-CR03: so no longer set up was good enough to actually, but it was good enough to tell us that with the subject in pointing at letter, we would get led emissions, whereas without the letter we wouldn't. So that was good enough to file for actual mean time the next year and get. And that's what we did. We spend a lot of time making our own sentence.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And we did a lot of calibration in the process. One of the things that we didn't do quite well enough. This energy calibration of the detector which turns out to be the case is that the energy calibration that was done is really good in the lower end regime of the energy sensitivity range of that detector is also 1020. But when you get up to 88, which is when you wanna maybe look at summing multiple pixels together
STFC-RAL-CR03: decrease natural revolution. But
STFC-RAL-CR03: then the energy collaboration is included up to that. And you're just
STFC-RAL-CR03: so
STFC-RAL-CR03: that data. I still have it, and still every now and then look at it, I think. Can I use something to fix that calibration sort of retroactively? It's never quite worked out.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That is what measurements look like. So apologies, Chris II will try and point. But
STFC-RAL-CR03: what we see here is different concentrations of lead in Inc. We. We made a table there. We label them somehow ignore the labeling the spectrum always looks the same. The counts are roughly the same. That is because we change the recording time. So where we knew that the concentration was going down, we increase the recording time to get roughly the same statistics under the leads.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So these are emission peaks
STFC-RAL-CR03: from that emissions. K. Alpha 2, and K. Alpha, one and 3. I think.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They have a known ratio, you can fit them together. They have S. They should have the same width which is only given by your detector.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so, therefore, you should be able to form one fit that fits both of these together, and negative to a reasonably stable reply, from what you're seeing we've done that we can detect down to what is down here about a third of the consideration of lead that we see in the original material.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is roughly where the original appearances they all look similar. What does happen is that as you go to lower concentrations, you have to increase your statistics, and what you see is that your background? So everything that isn't actually signal, which is sort of random X-rays random signal in your detector, or whatever
STFC-RAL-CR03: starts kicking in. So the statistical background starting to dominate. And you just need to report for so much longer to actually get signal that it's not worthwhile that one is reported for. I think 7 h.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That's the ballpark, I guess. So. So these take long when you're trying to make a new.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And what we then did do is look at various samples. I'll try and not spend too much time on it. This is a multi-layer sample, so you can tell that on the top right? So you can tell that multiple letters in multiple layers appear roughly with the same sort of contrast.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There's nothing that looks different from there compared to the top layer. The other thing we did is we
STFC-RAL-CR03: limited by time? So therefore these are, I think, 60 s shots per image.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and what you can do is you can then make an energy selection on the data that you report in your detector, and you can record just the structure. That is fine means of looking at content, scattering.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So if you know what energy you're expecting X-rays from home scattering, you can filter on the so-called X-ray energy, and you can use that to detect structure.
STFC-RAL-CR03: whereas when you filter on the K-line emissions from the lead, you can then see where the writing is. The problem is. The statistics with this are really bad. We would never have enough time to actually do Ct. At real estate concentrations.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We tried it out stats on our kids. But the principle works.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This is what we got from the actual sample. So this is a piece of Herculaneum scroll. The dimensions here are not quite right. It's 2 by 2 these days.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It keeps losing bits. So this letter is about, I want to say one and a half by one and a half millimeters in total. I mentioned like the
STFC-RAL-CR03: so this is a very small system. Still have it at home. Sometimes I want to drag it out and use it for something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We are thinking about doing other measurements with it, but it's slowly disintegrating, and I'm pretty sure I'm not going to make much more of it than what we have. This is the measurement. I line this up so that hopefully you can see the same shape. So what you see is an outline dimensional sort of well, not quite full, not quite half moon, which is here.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And you can see a C shape roughly. Here problem is, as I've said in the past. Contrast just isn't good enough. I if I wanted to sell this to anyone, I'd say, can you read the letter, they look at it, and they go one letter.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And so in that context, it's available. I'm still considering it a failed.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have tried to do things with the data we failed on that. We have tried to build a lab bench setup. I was part of the bid to the art piece 3 third council and got a few 10,000 pound results by a radioactive source.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Cap room 109, which in the past, when I talk about this is, it was a thought we have now done this. We bought it. It's got an emission energy of 88 kb, lit a absorption edge is at 88045 Kev, so about 30 electron volts below this.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So you can use this to stimulate lead emissions.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Problem is the fraction of high energy X-rays out of resources and beats. So you need to buy a really big source to get any decent breakout.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I bought 14 early curies, which is what we can buy from epidemi people, they say, and they're not likely to be that's not because the other emissions that it has are so low and energy that itself absorb. And they basically say it's not workout line, too.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Make money.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I wouldn't care cause I won't get my, but that's where I ended up. So I have a 1.4 tera thrown
STFC-RAL-CR03: no digital background
STFC-RAL-CR03: fair at birth
STFC-RAL-CR03: units of pokey, Millikuries.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I won't say either. That girl source in the safe downstairs, which is really not for illuminating things.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Problem, is, it really doesn't work in a box. We put it in a box in January is here. Source itself is the little white stick here, which is really print and stick, that holds a thing that looks like a point cell battery in front of it into TV radioactive. And we really don't want to point to that people.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But still, it's not quite enough X-rays to actually get an image of this
STFC-RAL-CR03: subject is within this frame. This is just extra shielding, so that the steel box that is around the shields enough so that you can leave it in a lab.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And this is the detector with a pinball in front of it. We're not seeing anything. but we're seeing enough, but not quite enough.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So this is not going to take off. I did at some point, presumably say differential imaging. I thought we didn't in this talk today. Given the enthusiasm that I had about the accurate duresses, I have never quite spent any time on anything else
STFC-RAL-CR03: when the enthusiasm at off
STFC-RAL-CR03: I had other things to do, so I didn't quite look back at it last year.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Okay, I wanna say a colleague came up to me and said she wanted to do something at the Canadian license. and she dragged me into the zoom room with my team line. Scientists from Cs. Were already keen on the subject.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and they tossed ideas around the room, and they said we could try and do what's called differential imaging
STFC-RAL-CR03: We then proposed that Cls. And we all been trying to work in almost last year.
STFC-RAL-CR03: at which point I went away and spoke with people at Diamond.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's it's one of those things. When you have been kind of yeah, sure you could be in time with us.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So I did get time at the moment very quickly. But this proposal went in in March, and I have time in April. and a goal. I want to say 4 days total on that group was a bit
STFC-RAL-CR03: they were different proposals. So one of them was Lh imaging the ribs. Page. Let's go into that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Thanks, Ray Fluoris.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Who knows why turkey residents is good. Well, I'm sure you all do. But you're just trying to break your and X-ray absorption images. Good! That's me
STFC-RAL-CR03: as you increase X-ray energy and you shoot into a material. You must have all seen absorption coefficients at some point during studies, something basically X-ray energy goes up horizontally.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Absorption goes down
STFC-RAL-CR03: that sort of usual thing up to a point where you start producing pairs, or you do all sorts of other weird stuff. Then it suddenly goes up again.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But before that you tend to end up in a platform region somewhere. Well, an Mev.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And the old app. You are in a constant sort of define of those
STFC-RAL-CR03: apart from where you start passing a threshold which is for picking out an electron shell.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So depending on where in the shell you are, which electron you're trying to pick out. These are different energies.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but they are specific to the actual that you have there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So what happens is you increase X-ray energy, and rather than your absorption going down, which should it goes up.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This only happens at first specific entities. They're very element specific. So you can use this to record, say, 2 X-ray images and one just above.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And in the difference you should only see a material fraction that has that specific edge going up and absorption makes sense.
STFC-RAL-CR03: See a Norman? What model is good enough
STFC-RAL-CR03: in the next. So this year is led this year's carbon. Much of the material that we're looking at is Colin Colin just drops down. Carbon has no X ray emissions, so there will wait.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah. It basically drops to plateau somewhere around. I won't say 1020, 80, and then save that
STFC-RAL-CR03: that drops down until somewhere in the 100 Kv's
STFC-RAL-CR03: and the loss absorption edge is the cage here, the L edge small, one edge many edges. You can find a reasonably sizable one at 13 Kv, that goes off by a factor of 2 and a half
STFC-RAL-CR03: pay edge goes up by a factor of 7, you know. So so it's quite a significant increase where you do need to think about is your in the past 12,000 of net contamination and the rest of the material.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So parts per 1,000 going up by a factors.
STFC-RAL-CR03: whatever bullet 10
STFC-RAL-CR03: hope that measure.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we're we're thinking, one in a hundred change of absorption.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Does that make sense alright good.
STFC-RAL-CR03: which means you need to count lots of photons. You need a detector that is very good in efficiency, recording images through your subject with very high box of photons.
STFC-RAL-CR03: counting them all.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then hopefully doing lots of images. You get enough statistics in this to measure a change of one in a hundred in a torch.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that's the goal.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You might wonder.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yep, it doesn't.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And this is what it looks like at C. OS and key lines.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The sample that we have here is a sample that has very high concentration led on the top left, which is easy to spot with thinking 10% or something 20% of lead in your writing. So there's papyrus in the background. The virus doesn't change into its sort of absorption. So you just fall down on this. This is a differential image. I divide the
STFC-RAL-CR03: higher energy, X-ray image, lower energy, X-ray image. Anything that doesn't change in terms of absorption factor or just scrolls down because it's the same doable material will just appear.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Anything that changes will turn up or right, depending on whether it suddenly drops or suddenly increases.
STFC-RAL-CR03: top increases, and it depends which way around you to talk and to get done.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that turns properly done. That transmit done. This is a reference square where we know that there's something there. So we recorded something. Just get a great value for what the absorption decrease should be.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And this here is where a factor of 10 above our real samples is
STFC-RAL-CR03: as our our birthly lenient material.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So you can see all that zoom pay lines. It gets harder as you go to the right, I agree, but you can definitely see it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Promise. have lots of images if you want to knock yourself out with doing a bit of image type inserts
STFC-RAL-CR03: super easy, lovely to do
STFC-RAL-CR03: and there's lots to be discovered there. Other features that you can see in this, by the way, is the crystals that then the X-rays that they give you the monochromatic selection of X-rays. They have defects in them. The how the beam hit 70 phones in, and you can see patterns here. Circular patterns of where these crystals have weird shapes.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You see all sorts of stuff when you start sort of looking at billions of couples from a monochromator.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have also done this assignment in airlines.
STFC-RAL-CR03: reason being the K-line absorption is basically 0 fabric. If you do single layer virus.
STFC-RAL-CR03: it doesn't care about 100 Kvx rates. They just go through
STFC-RAL-CR03: if you do 13 Kv x-rays, you can actually see the structure. So what we see here is structure of the papyrus, that is, this one here, and in particular, we are hometown on this Red Square, and what you may be able to see or not be able to see is a sort of speckly pattern in this area.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is what you see there as X-ray absorption from that ink.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is the where where the absorption changes as you go up in energy
STFC-RAL-CR03: main problem with the airlines is
STFC-RAL-CR03: the absorption is very high. You get a lot of faith. Contrast cause we've got a depending on distance between detector and everything. But we did get a lot of base contrast on this.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The other thing we got from it was generally contrast promotion.
STFC-RAL-CR03: If your subject moves by a microphone. and you've got microphone size pixels on your detector. Then very quickly you get contrast just because the structure has changed. Face.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The other thing that happens is that the incident? X-ray beam? If your beam line isn't super well calibrated, the incident X-ray beam might change angle. So as you you go to monchromator crystals. Crystals used to select an energy from the Internet express.
STFC-RAL-CR03: One bounces up the next one bounces back into the horizontal direction and selects your your X-ray energy, basically.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But in doing that you have to adjust angles of these crystals and depending on where exactly they sit and how the angles are adjusted
STFC-RAL-CR03: by changing the energy, you suddenly get a different incident axis of the X-rays.
STFC-RAL-CR03: fewer we students. On the last day they were very keen on python. So they had a day of fun trying to figure out what the change in projection pixels was from one of these images, so sort of doing a best fit of where things are, from the data, trying to find out what is the what shift do we have in terms of pixels? So this image is without any shifting, that's just plain difference.
STFC-RAL-CR03: If I had spent more time on this I should spend more time on this, then we may be able to get rid of most of that structure that you see here. So these vertical lines, horizontal lines in the image, and you would then hopefully see the actual lead more.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I should go back to Diamond. The problem is, there's no publications on anything which means I can't point to it when I'm putting in a request for meantime.
STFC-RAL-CR03: which means they will declined it. They have declined it, for now Diamond is around the corner, and if they have a day off where they don't need to do anything. They will give me a shout. Now we'll just walk over there and test
STFC-RAL-CR03: what is differential, X-ray or just, I don't really need specific equipment. I just need freedom samples. So in that sense, I can just go there whenever
STFC-RAL-CR03: and they are medium-sized. So when it when it comes to doing these measurements again, I might get something done. This year
STFC-RAL-CR03: depends, or otherwise I will need to figure out again and then go back next year.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That is roughly where we are. One of the things that gets in my way is that diamond is undergoing undergoing upgrades in various places. So what will happen is that these 16 changes in terms of designation will turn into a high intensity, be 9 with point lots more people will want to do measurements there. Simple, more photons.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that's when it then gets harder to get access to. But
STFC-RAL-CR03: miserable.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I think that's it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yep.
STFC-RAL-CR03: other than the truth. Nobody has asked any question.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Quote purpose?
STFC-RAL-CR03: So in doing the differential measurements, the idea is that you measure the absorption coefficient right around the edge. How do you do that? Have massive problems with self absorption in determining, like the kind of attenuation coefficient dealing like? How do you actually measure the absorption coefficients?
STFC-RAL-CR03: Is it like a process very varying thickness? Or
STFC-RAL-CR03: it is that II don't. It's it's not the detail analysis, I think to the extra images. And I, just the main problem is to get the right statistics to measure these full content. I typically need to report multiple images. If anything moves between individual images for anything. So when I change the energy
STFC-RAL-CR03: that
just about the ink
STFC-RAL-CR03: is the
STFC-RAL-CR03: things in it other than lead that that you could.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yes, platform, too. And and then you could. You could look for so one of the things one of the things that we haven't done yet is smart technology.
STFC-RAL-CR03: One of the things that one should do is just take an example spectrometer and really find out what's in it
STFC-RAL-CR03: measurements.
STFC-RAL-CR03: That is something that is consistent across that platform. Other people have seen it in other parts.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yes, right?
STFC-RAL-CR03: And we know that that is something that happens. We want them one less.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So one of the main things is, people are starting to eat like inks. There's people in urban feed
STFC-RAL-CR03: on something like that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We're doing. Find out what they focus on.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But what I probably miss saying early on the big problem with, this is in the Middle Ages. You have things with iron in it. They're really cool because you can just X-ray them. You see them lots of them talking really good.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Grant that I was even good scientists has very successfully done an analysis scroll from the dead scene.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Which they just had. Ct. Scan. They plugged in. But did it want that framework to reconstruct layers? And they could see the writing on it again.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The pigment that you use in the ink?
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's something that haven't. That's a reason to be my absorption in the reason in it. Then they both run
STFC-RAL-CR03: in this one. What we're talking about is organic ink. It's main from plants, typically plants like virus.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The papyrus that you write on is so they're very near to the plant that was used to make being. And both of them were firm one before writing the other argument.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that is the main challenge with this is, there isn't anything actually added to it that we're aware that shouldn't be in there. In 2017. We do lots of tests with just let it tools, because that was metal at the time that was used. If it's in piping, you don't expect it to contaminate water enough to actually be something in the in, but if you use it as a vessel, so as a dish or something. Then you get that contamination. It's high levels.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we would have left the game.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So, depending on Halloween was prepared, or what was used to deposit it on the scrolls. Something we expect. Let's feed it in there and have a mechanism explaining it for everything else.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Calcium strontium, all sorts of weird things that happen in plants.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah. Well, we and
STFC-RAL-CR03: their engines are just still different. So you'd be stuck in recently low regimes, where it's then harder to figure out what you're looking at. But with the lead at 13 kg, you get recently.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And it's you can verify it at very nearby other energies, because you'd expect other jobs at home.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is that there's another source of writing things. That's the tablets from Pendle, London.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We've ever considered looking at those.
STFC-RAL-CR03: because the British Museum has
STFC-RAL-CR03: huge amounts of material that, and they might be willing to be some of those, and that's just 2 bits of wood folded together. Most of them they open up, and they can read but a lot of quite hard to read. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: I over the course of this, I have traveled a bit. I've seen a few things so into the in the research sector sort of behind.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I've been to the Natural History Museum, to the basement, where they have lots of research facilities. and I've been to the Chester Beauty library in Dublin. they again they sort of
STFC-RAL-CR03: restoration something on the battery, but they looked at their post from the chest of et. We made them bring over a thing that they found in a phone
STFC-RAL-CR03: that was a few 100,000 years old or so.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Where they flew on top layers, and they had writing on it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the problem that I'm facing when I'm doing this demo with the
STFC-RAL-CR03: not to say it's not a lot of thinking about. What could we do if we spend time trying to figure out?
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03: that student loans for them. The problem is something for a more time for it. I'd love to do more on that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'd love to do more of this. But the differential data I have some from a few terabytes from last year, and this year I've been to Canada again this year.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Saskatoon, again, is not place that you want to visit.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but they do have a really nice light source, and they're both Canadian. So everything's lovely over there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but yeah, I just. I just needed one time to do
STFC-RAL-CR03: well, talking of the ink, though. It's people. I don't know whether that whether any of the British Museum people I've attempted to
STFC-RAL-CR03: look at anything further by looking at concert being or something. She knows anyone.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The problem, the problem always is one of one of the extra slides, says Conservatives. The biggest problem that we face when we're looking at her. Linear material is, is these scrolls in Oxford in a bottle in a library?
STFC-RAL-CR03: I haven't seen them. Brent has actually seen them, and that was only after we had been told.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have successfully scanned scrolls from Paris because they were willing to bring them over here
STFC-RAL-CR03: of the Inn library to this day, as an old Greek brings rolls down
STFC-RAL-CR03: from Oxford. She loaded me
STFC-RAL-CR03: 300 mile journey. but it's it's a separate charity that runs the vendor on the stuff produced.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah. I've been into the Oxymus collection in Oxford, which again, is a separate entity that owns it, and somebody else who maintains it, and all the libraries somehow own.
STFC-RAL-CR03: they have lots of material that
STFC-RAL-CR03: Boxy Rinkas is a place in Egypt, which is basically it was a waste dump, and they found lots of papyrus in it, and they dug it up and put it into boxes, and the Egyptian Exploration Society owns it, and they haven't.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This random bits of is early, difficult text in it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but there is other bits that are just completely unidentified.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Those things to look at. Funny things, crocodiles, scheme
STFC-RAL-CR03: we should do the next.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It sounds like you just need a pet humanities person who can.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So
STFC-RAL-CR03: its name was
both, hey?
STFC-RAL-CR03: But you can find him. Because if you Google for Oxford don arrested for stealing Iris there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: yeah. long time to the Bible in us money.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Using what? The microprocessor? Okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I think ceilings aren't finished against their. So it's unclear. What? What? Whether he's guilty or not. But we have distanced ourselves from. Since then.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We do have another person in humanities who has taken hold of the often Humanities Research Council did. He was very helpful in getting us in touch with people at the body and library, but making things happen
STFC-RAL-CR03: at some point. It was far enough that I said. make a machine that maybe we can use for imaging things, and I will try to make this machine
STFC-RAL-CR03: in such a way that we can bring it to what we in libraries rather than moving the scrolls down.
STFC-RAL-CR03: at which one they were very open to the idea of bringing. So it's all yeah. You need somebody to get you in the dorm.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then you just need to make a proposals, and then they'll be yes.
STFC-RAL-CR03: oh. sorry to just speak more random people again. But I was wondering if you've worked with John Ramen's library tool in Manchester. Just. I know there are a lot of much people here, and they do, Scrub, that's all.
STFC-RAL-CR03: No, I
STFC-RAL-CR03: again, we should make a list somewhere. We should speak to
STFC-RAL-CR03: if we had more time. One of the things that is a downside here is if you want to do things like differential X ray imaging or very detail. For instance, analysis, you need Zoom Phone
STFC-RAL-CR03: getting on implementing the potential X-ray source is possible for the efficiencies.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And so you tend to end up in place. We can't do this on that. and that means time, and that means then they'll provide costs developing. It
STFC-RAL-CR03: needs to be done a quick. And then then, once you've got a method that works, then you can sell it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'm sure that we had a way of keeping our immaterial wish. I still hope that we're not too far away from
STFC-RAL-CR03: then you could do it
STFC-RAL-CR03: at any point. But people would pay to get the phone.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's incredible how many people have money to spend on random things.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but you need to convince them that it's worthwhile spending rent, in fact, is very good at convincing. If you spend money on this so being somewhere in the slides that will teach you to scroll scroll price work.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Brent has recorded Ct. Scan data diamond
STFC-RAL-CR03: when he said he can detect being by using
STFC-RAL-CR03: deep learning chucked at random. Cpi code.
STFC-RAL-CR03: you swap the surface scanning of the scroll where you can identify with the engaging user to train the deep neural network and then apply it to the inner layers.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I have not seen results from that. Well, I've seen temporary results from that. That promising a bit like the rest of things that I'm showing you both promising and actually working are 2 different things. So it seems like
STFC-RAL-CR03: not quite there. Hello.
STFC-RAL-CR03: people like AI that said something to be done. There's money to be made from it. Somebody funded price somewhere around in the accounts total.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Apparently people have Monk be inspired by
Chris Damerell: any questions on Zoom. Maybe just a quick question. Comment. I think the the progress. I only see it peripherally with Lcns 2 is amazing. And so I mean, I think one of the great things about this topic is that if you want more intensity in X-ray beams, this is always happening, isn't it? Around the world? And of course, I mean the Uk. Are also still talking about a Uk.
Chris Damerell: No idea what the prospects, but certainly Lc lists, too, is is moving forward brilliantly. I think so. I mean, there must be you know, opportunities opening up there, I would imagine.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Well, one of the big problems I have here. Chris, is the recording. So the intensity of the incident X-ray beam obviously scales the sort of time that you need to do anything.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but then very quickly you get to a threshold where your detector is just not able to handle it in a good enough fashion to give you a signal. You're just saturating.
Chris Damerell: That's a problem for everybody in this business. So, but there are, of course, a a ideas. But as as we all know, that that takes time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So one of the things to be worked on in particular at diamond is integration of detectors, and making sure that they weed out fast enough so that you can get lots of data out of them. And so I will say, is E, 16
STFC-RAL-CR03: low-intensity beam line was perfectly good for what we did there in terms of differential imaging. Biggest problem we had was recording efficiency at we had something around 100% or 90%.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Then we could have probably done what we did there in few hours rather than 5 days.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Problem is, there's a lot more Reds. You. You need to. Yeah, speak to time early and get everything working. And if you don't have it working, then you're spending 5 days mostly doing analog things.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And so I'm I'm I'm not sure I need more intensity at this point. I would just need a bee line, and one that hopefully is less occupied than most of the lead at the time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We should work more with Diamond to sort of make sure that they're recording efficiencies. Good. There's a lot to be said about just sort of red and butter stuff working
STFC-RAL-CR03: rather than doing
STFC-RAL-CR03: super eye brilliance for something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah.
Chris Damerell: that could be a bit of a plug for the what is it? PST. 13. The Thirteenth
Chris Damerell: Position Conference coming up in a couple of weeks in Oxford and there are ideas for for for you know, big big ramp up in terms of recording capability. But a. And it will happen. But it's I have no idea the timescale.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Okay. no more questions and spend years again.
STFC-RAL-CR03: is the end. If anyone feels like coming up and asking questions, once images or data are anything.