STFC-RAL-CR03: Science.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have one test engineer, everyone else
STFC-RAL-CR03: A lot of I'll be back in and it works. Let's
STFC-RAL-CR03: mostly optical, so we do optical characterization of our devices. And
STFC-RAL-CR03: there.
STFC-RAL-CR03: to the Greek leader is Nicole agreed some of you probably know, and we
STFC-RAL-CR03: so, because we share it on this with the with the asing design group. We do
STFC-RAL-CR03: signal sensor and match type stuff, and they do basically everything else so.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And but because of the kind of practical. They they level that works. It is an opportunity to.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So I I split the rest of this work in 2 min. We also to focus mostly on the
STFC-RAL-CR03: on the first part. So this is just a list of the
STFC-RAL-CR03: physics activities. Were involved in
STFC-RAL-CR03: a bit on the electron lighter.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Well, running research program.
each tool.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We're just starting to get involved with the
STFC-RAL-CR03: future research. Much work under way on that in a minute, but it's discussing it.
not a.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and we've also been working with the group that so
STFC-RAL-CR03: she called mold. I'll say a little bit.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then we have quite a there's a wide range of other activities, and I just the one
STFC-RAL-CR03: slide in on the end to those. So we've done a lot in electron microscopy for a long time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Some soft X-ray work. We did some stuff with spat so high time, resolution
STFC-RAL-CR03: things for Roman spectrometry last year. and then we had quite a big activity in high-speed imaging or light area.
which is
STFC-RAL-CR03: okay. So the first project my list. So. working initially together with Birmingham we should have got involved.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's an Rd. Some design studies for the electronic line er it for cable.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So because this is a sort of an electron machine, one of the one of the major goals of it is
STFC-RAL-CR03: very, very little months. Their Their plan is to have a very
STFC-RAL-CR03: sensor for the vertex layer.
and
STFC-RAL-CR03: and it around being pipes. These are kind of.
STFC-RAL-CR03: or do you
STFC-RAL-CR03: that rather than build stage with the idea of having a low mass device?
STFC-RAL-CR03: And, as it happens, the the upgrade to the lease
STFC-RAL-CR03: very sensible thing together.
STFC-RAL-CR03: produce something that would be suitable for both.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So
STFC-RAL-CR03: that has been the plan for the for the IC. Or and some of the
STFC-RAL-CR03: some higher ups in the project around so yesterday, but appreciating someone
STFC-RAL-CR03: details around that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But in
STFC-RAL-CR03: working with the Ips 3 to to get involved.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Let me
STFC-RAL-CR03: so that kind of as advantages beyond the check, if you like an opportunity to engage with Sorry it's an opportunity for us to to get involved 65 nanometer.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So your sensory, though
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's most most of what the rest of what i'm going to show you. Is it 180? So I know all their technology. She's also cheaper. As these things become smaller and more advanced to becoming more and more expensive.
so
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's a good opportunity to be involved in that, and to share with other groups the the cost and access to silicon
STFC-RAL-CR03: and our work on that is, it's funded
STFC-RAL-CR03: minutes through the Ukr Infrastructure Fund. So together
STFC-RAL-CR03: these institutes must at least some more, and I think that's a key list.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We had what they call a preliminary activities like funds 3 years to get started, and
STFC-RAL-CR03: next year. and there is currently a
STFC-RAL-CR03: a bit going in for a full proposal
STFC-RAL-CR03: of the Uk effort towards
STFC-RAL-CR03: construction of the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the detectors
STFC-RAL-CR03: percent of it.
right?
STFC-RAL-CR03: So
STFC-RAL-CR03: we had a couple of tips back in this 65 million.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The process I think have their first stitch, so it's a large scale.
STFC-RAL-CR03: just like that. It's right. It's a
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that's probably the latest
STFC-RAL-CR03: biggest particle physical.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So this this is a little bit more detail. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: our our own interest in this was sort of around the
STFC-RAL-CR03: data transmission initially. So we we work on some
STFC-RAL-CR03: high speed. Yeah, Els line drivers.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We also help the team. It is 3 with I yield objects.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They want to build sensors that are are big enough to depend on When we cover a a significant area.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But the challenge of building makes sense is that yield
STFC-RAL-CR03: that we grow so lots of small chips on the way for the yield at 90% at 90% of your change work.
STFC-RAL-CR03: One very vision.
STFC-RAL-CR03: 50% of the same area
STFC-RAL-CR03: doesn't work.
10%. Okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So one of the ways around, I just to
STFC-RAL-CR03: spacing in the next one
STFC-RAL-CR03: what kind of things? Some work.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but at least a lot of past experience with large chips.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and because one of the things that the IC. Will need that its 3 doesn't is to construct stage there's some interest in serial borrowing. So we're we're currently
STFC-RAL-CR03: looking into the shuttle.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So how much data are you talking about on your relationships? First stable for reliable operation? The Dead Area doesn't come so much from
STFC-RAL-CR03: from what you need to do for reliability into more.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So people people make wa for scale tips already mostly for many lecture, but they're very simple, because it is
STFC-RAL-CR03: a few where it's
STFC-RAL-CR03: particle physics, pixels are.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It is it? Find the shapers budget.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So what you have to do is is space open? That
STFC-RAL-CR03: logic and all that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: What leads to the dead area is that
STFC-RAL-CR03: you need some space at the end. If you're ready to by lodging together, or you need. You make a mysativity. You have the the seal right now, the
STFC-RAL-CR03: so do you then actually give it going down to 65 nanometers, or
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's a large it
STFC-RAL-CR03: again in
STFC-RAL-CR03: 2 ways. So the the pixel will still be a bit
STFC-RAL-CR03: the other
of the
STFC-RAL-CR03: they hold
STFC-RAL-CR03: that you know the picture process is on.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They take
STFC-RAL-CR03: 65, and I think almost everything beyond is on 12 inch later. when you make it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yes, so that's that's a revolting. but
STFC-RAL-CR03: so something else that's kind of been ticking along in the background for a long time, is It's
STFC-RAL-CR03: Well, Prd. Was still running funded
STFC-RAL-CR03: sort of demonstrated to for
STFC-RAL-CR03: just calibrate a train. So the Mexico
STFC-RAL-CR03: sort of something that
STFC-RAL-CR03: in the in at least particles
STFC-RAL-CR03: just to go. And you can do that all in silicon
cheaper.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and as a as an extension to that, we wanted to look into making it
STFC-RAL-CR03: reconfigurable, so
STFC-RAL-CR03: it should kind of
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's composed of a series of common rules of excellence. Every excellence. There
STFC-RAL-CR03: he's, he's, he's, he's, he's he's undertaken
STFC-RAL-CR03: within every column in kind of the number of so there were that following a certain period of time. it can either be read on like that, in which case it appears
STFC-RAL-CR03: the outside world.
STFC-RAL-CR03: straight from or not.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The result of all those columns together.
STFC-RAL-CR03: you get a kind of total number of
STFC-RAL-CR03: the idea that you could use the same
STFC-RAL-CR03: chip, the digital silicon.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There is a
STFC-RAL-CR03: western tracker. This is sort of only a small demonstrator.
64 by 64
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have that so that's that's kind of not
STFC-RAL-CR03: under active development with us, but various of these groups that have a
STFC-RAL-CR03: from time to time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'll talk a bit about the did program in a minute, but the one of the the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the the Rt's program is his teller of interest and some suggestion together. Proposal on
STFC-RAL-CR03: the for color of a tree based on this is, we can figure it
STFC-RAL-CR03: nice things.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So I mentioned the the the program already so like, I imagine
STFC-RAL-CR03: we're certainly already aware of that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But this is
STFC-RAL-CR03: future R&D
STFC-RAL-CR03: towards the our ideas for whatever the next big machines.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that's currently starting up, and it's sort of split into
STFC-RAL-CR03: to these areas at the moment, and I sort of highlighted
STFC-RAL-CR03: the ones that are most interesting
STFC-RAL-CR03: to us in the you see, Ross crew, anyway, so well, it's
STFC-RAL-CR03: so. It's table detectors.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and same same sort of thing that I do. You think it works out at the moment?
STFC-RAL-CR03: The other is the Rd. 7, which is a bit more focus on
STFC-RAL-CR03: the the implications of using electronics in these experiments on how to do
STFC-RAL-CR03: big chips for the future. New technologies will be what the integration will be like.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we
STFC-RAL-CR03: There are a lot of people involved in this, a lot of people around a lot of people who
STFC-RAL-CR03: I just put a list of it
STFC-RAL-CR03: and TV very well to that. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: August is on the Steering Committee for the Rd. 7.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'm. Involved in the investigation
STFC-RAL-CR03: it the that as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Mark Willoughby is the head of the the Msc. My electronics bullet center. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: when I say the I D. 7 is kind of focused on that
practicalities.
STFC-RAL-CR03: One of the big.
STFC-RAL-CR03: extremely complicated
STFC-RAL-CR03: the
STFC-RAL-CR03: purposes throughout your
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's a market leaving the bit of T. R. G. 7 that's focused on
STFC-RAL-CR03: what needs to be done to to integrate those
STFC-RAL-CR03: article of physics.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And the overall plan for the did program is, it's not that it's no money. The idea is that it will set a range of priorities
STFC-RAL-CR03: improving the Rd stomach.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They they their funding agencies
STFC-RAL-CR03: to release funds.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we're we're kind of involved in in the discussion.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Okay, and then the last one I wanted to talk about was
STFC-RAL-CR03: multiple. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: this is a sort of a long-running development of one of the great sir. 8 min
STFC-RAL-CR03: my granularity and my radiation hardness absolutely
STFC-RAL-CR03: featured gliders.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So it is that you're working a lot for a moment. Something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Good night.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The Princess at one stage because part of that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: See if I come to development for something else. We
STFC-RAL-CR03: prepared
STFC-RAL-CR03: high-speed apps here in order to be pl so to put that, together with the the pixel. The matrix they already developed was a
STFC-RAL-CR03: Was it good to me
STFC-RAL-CR03: to make something that was easier to integrate?
STFC-RAL-CR03: And the the timing was redirect platforms.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we've we've been working with them
STFC-RAL-CR03: past year or so on this flying
STFC-RAL-CR03: that look so
STFC-RAL-CR03: really integrate with the
STFC-RAL-CR03: X and the other part. They've already developed this as part of the
STFC-RAL-CR03: multi-program, so that
STFC-RAL-CR03: this sort of front of a chip is the cfi
STFC-RAL-CR03: that one
STFC-RAL-CR03: I look so. It's a very good experience for testing pixels and ABC's other applications. And then the serializing that is done here.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But because things ever go the way you plan that that's tiny. Little
people are interested in question.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so that that so it's an interesting point at the funding was that was supported by a little bit of Cfi money last year, and but only because they
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'm: sorry. Okay.
right to literally
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's an application.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So it is tricky.
STFC-RAL-CR03: The version of it funded to respond
to be
STFC-RAL-CR03: their projects going forward responsive funding streams like that.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It is
STFC-RAL-CR03: okay, so that I think that covers the particle physics projects. We're involved in at the moment. So I just wanted to to briefly shoot through stuff we do in other People's
Austin printer.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But
but
STFC-RAL-CR03: so for a long time
STFC-RAL-CR03: it involves electron microscopy so
STFC-RAL-CR03: developed sensors that
STFC-RAL-CR03: I want it to be right at kind of video reds. But for about 3 increases the
STFC-RAL-CR03: certainly we still have an activity there.
Some work to
STFC-RAL-CR03: the standard you have. Energy is about 380
STFC-RAL-CR03: developing.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You can.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so you
STFC-RAL-CR03: more accessible to more people it's. It's much easier to to build with myers.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We've worked on things for
STFC-RAL-CR03: soft-
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's only
STFC-RAL-CR03: thanks for having me range.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We've done a bit of
STFC-RAL-CR03: spectrometry, so I mentioned it's the relevant one. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: he developed a chip with the Spanish in the last year, or to provide time, resolution separating
STFC-RAL-CR03: rather than like fluorescence, spectrometry, experience.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and we also longer it goes.
STFC-RAL-CR03: developed a sort of xy t kind of parameter for
STFC-RAL-CR03: time to the flight mass until the tree I just use that for
STFC-RAL-CR03: materials. It was you. Well coded
linear. Differences
STFC-RAL-CR03: become sensitive to this this study. Here is it's the same change that's used for the time of flight. Spectrometry, but
STFC-RAL-CR03: use on on. Is it serious?
STFC-RAL-CR03: We you quite a lot of high speed. So we
STFC-RAL-CR03: project was a commercial.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Are you a second
STFC-RAL-CR03: camera. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's one of their advertising.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This one up here is from another high speed. Chip.
If all right
STFC-RAL-CR03: subscribe to the pixels, so you can choose to have a kind of simultaneously at high resolution. Still treat every pixel as a little memory cell.
STFC-RAL-CR03: What
high resolution still and
STFC-RAL-CR03: 60 or 25 frame video of the same thing.
STFC-RAL-CR03: A lot of this is based on our sort of thing. We've done. The longest that feeds into the most projects is doing this on large areas
STFC-RAL-CR03: so
STFC-RAL-CR03: developed a way for scale. Well, that's
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'll just have to test, but it works right.
I see.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Oh.
STFC-RAL-CR03: spun out a few years ago.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This is 4 of those, together with a with a gap of
STFC-RAL-CR03: less than one pixel in between. So you can build kind of chest X-rays. The large sensor has no
STFC-RAL-CR03: talking about that areas as well as as
STFC-RAL-CR03: and I think that is everything. So I just put up at the end
STFC-RAL-CR03: little videos. This one is the 2 by 2 X-ray panel in the last slide.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This is sort of taking an X-ray video rates.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and this one is from the
STFC-RAL-CR03: 5, a second.
STFC-RAL-CR03: For trades and purposes They have a little demo with an air because it can shoot things as the others
STFC-RAL-CR03: course it's 5 million pounds a second.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It just shows the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the village from the airlines. The pixel air is through
STFC-RAL-CR03: breaking. It
Gotcha.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but it it's like you for your attention. And so
STFC-RAL-CR03: yes, thank you very much.
It's a very nice
STFC-RAL-CR03: questions.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's back here in total.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Is this a real tank image like what when you that this X-ray One. Yeah. Yeah. So the the sensor runs at like 35 a second so
STFC-RAL-CR03: right
STFC-RAL-CR03: and then what is the depth? You can see like a.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Oh, what is it Like the depos like a. You see what's the size of this? The B or
STFC-RAL-CR03: you can. You can see through this image that is
STFC-RAL-CR03: I mean there's little these things, but I think but it that depends less on the sensor and more on the
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's a great
STFC-RAL-CR03: simulators and x-rays and visible lot of characters. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: what you're testing and that's received
what energy of X Well.
STFC-RAL-CR03: scintillator input on the sensor to the sensor itself is
STFC-RAL-CR03: is visible. But
that's
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'm hearing a lot from
STFC-RAL-CR03: colleagues in Cern amidst that, by the way, about the problems of retaining and recruiting and retaining
STFC-RAL-CR03: design engineers and even more verification engineers, which is a very hot area that you say. Can you say some words about that? How it has Sdfc. Doing in that
STFC-RAL-CR03: a minute. Not too bad, but i'll i'll.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I don't honestly know why
STFC-RAL-CR03: you're right. That by the major major challenge
STFC-RAL-CR03: they
STFC-RAL-CR03: the
STFC-RAL-CR03: this particularly is an area that we relaxed lovely industry, and a lot more
STFC-RAL-CR03: so.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And then another part of the challenge is.
STFC-RAL-CR03: People sort of approach it from a science back
STFC-RAL-CR03: our Phds. And then our stocks last week 3 years, which really is.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's an engineering room more than a so. It's. It's all from a struggle. You should start train somebody for 3 years, Ph. D. And then they or something.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So here we tend to recruit because graduates.
STFC-RAL-CR03: we certainly went through a period where we really struggles to resign people for some reason.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and immediately. It's not too bad. I think.
STFC-RAL-CR03: What we can do really to make the bark is interesting. Possible
STFC-RAL-CR03: things like this
STFC-RAL-CR03: silly, but it keeps people enthusiastic. But that's really the only way.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah, I mean the cases. I'm hearing of people who I mean, it's not that hard to get very bright, you know new graduates, but
STFC-RAL-CR03: and to train them up, and and it's a great introduction to the to the field, of course, working in a lab such as this or certain things. but at that point they tend to go, and they're over something, the food level. This is what is it? Monopoly to the monopix? One
STFC-RAL-CR03: was designed and worked at Cern under butter stories.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Olympics to the designer was absolutely brilliant. and I left before the first approach I came out, and there are problems that we
performance and the people working on it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There was no real verification active in serious verification activity going on. But it's a very complicated chip, and it's not quite clear how that get out of that, Solomon, and it's very expensive. If you have to have several iterations. Then the whole thing becomes extremely expensive compared with
STFC-RAL-CR03: originalists. That's that's a big problem. I mean, there's certainly certainly also an argument.
STFC-RAL-CR03: People they make. The part of my function is to train people for those few years
STFC-RAL-CR03: the University September.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But that comes to blogging everybody. Otherwise there's no one left.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You know, Pierre. here's a problem that I need
STFC-RAL-CR03: by your means. So it's part of the reason that groups work a lot more closely together, these different from in the past.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Also, as the technologies get more helpful if you did not challenge it because it works, it's hard. You're an argument with that
STFC-RAL-CR03: some of the the sort of earlier chips on those slides.
STFC-RAL-CR03: One or 2
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's just not the case. I mean. Our government is always talking about it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You know Britain leading in scientific areas as well as simple. But you have to pay. That's the very top things to do that, and they don't seem to quite well. I think it's also a bit of a problem in the
STFC-RAL-CR03: case.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Let's hope to zoom. Is there a question on? Zoom?
STFC-RAL-CR03: I would see I
STFC-RAL-CR03: you can just speak.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I I would like to ask. On on the mountain chip there was an interesting pattern, so I was wondering the 2 dimensional.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So these are
STFC-RAL-CR03: So then, their eye diagrams basically
STFC-RAL-CR03: so that they, from our original testing of the serializing. So it it runs it
STFC-RAL-CR03: 3 later, right. So I think this is
STFC-RAL-CR03: 2.8, 4, point 3, and live. So these are just. These are our own agents of Take it
purple.
STFC-RAL-CR03: This is the cheap, worst Florida
STFC-RAL-CR03: for one. Sure they
STFC-RAL-CR03: load.
STFC-RAL-CR03: You got to go and check this for you
STFC-RAL-CR03: all her to the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the goal of of sort of using our our gail and serializing for it is that the timing
STFC-RAL-CR03: pixels and
STFC-RAL-CR03: what we made is the data which is to be diversified.
It's a certain
STFC-RAL-CR03: what we
STFC-RAL-CR03: yes, and then the state of the I of this What is stopping us?
STFC-RAL-CR03: The Science Community from going faster into smaller side this evening is not desirable.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yes, this is very interesting, Chris.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So So image sensors in general, even in
STFC-RAL-CR03: industry.
STFC-RAL-CR03: my state of the art it was largely because of size.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the really sort of state of the I process the the CPU in your in your life
STFC-RAL-CR03: days.
STFC-RAL-CR03: on the main term to the screen of the region, or even
STFC-RAL-CR03: industrial image sense speech, that it's very much for them.
STFC-RAL-CR03: 5
after 10 min. I
STFC-RAL-CR03: and it's partly because
STFC-RAL-CR03: digital transistors scale really well that you can strengthen up those into a CPU, it's worth.
STFC-RAL-CR03: in other words.
STFC-RAL-CR03: privilege sensors
STFC-RAL-CR03: the
STFC-RAL-CR03: for a second. Your pixel already needs to have some there. some size
STFC-RAL-CR03: that size doesn't stream.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so at least it's much more expensive to make in the lower rooms, Making a CPU. It gets smaller as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but the it says there is a fixed
ish sounds
STFC-RAL-CR03: freedom there. It's not really worse commercial
STFC-RAL-CR03: that we tend to like.
And just because it's so stable.
STFC-RAL-CR03: such a large area.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So I mean this.
STFC-RAL-CR03: yeah, these kind of massive sensors
that
STFC-RAL-CR03: today on the research scene
Customers. right?
STFC-RAL-CR03: So yeah, just they're all applications for the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the beam stuff, which is still small.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We have to see State aggregation. That's your or for maps challenges
STFC-RAL-CR03: you want to retain there, and that area is much, much more
STFC-RAL-CR03: very interesting.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah, Once it comes on the the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the 2 2 dimensional into accounting whether
it
STFC-RAL-CR03: yeah, what? What kind of single no processing it's there
STFC-RAL-CR03: identified. Here.
STFC-RAL-CR03: It's just a threshold. It's quite simple. It's just threshold it.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So we have a every pixel's threshold, and was to take the hand
then
STFC-RAL-CR03: every color up to a certain maximum.
I think it's
STFC-RAL-CR03: 16,
STFC-RAL-CR03: which is limited by
STFC-RAL-CR03: the amount of addition logic you can hack into the
the column.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so some of our collaborators at Birmingham they made studies of what the energy
solution.
the time.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the higher that Le
STFC-RAL-CR03: also
STFC-RAL-CR03: that that was one of the things pointed out when
STFC-RAL-CR03: I already during development. the technology people.
STFC-RAL-CR03: together with physics.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03: And I think that's that's really important. And sometimes it's
STFC-RAL-CR03: this: the
STFC-RAL-CR03: it's a simulations that they're needed to properly specify and detect.
STFC-RAL-CR03: I'm always very keen to.
Okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah. And yeah, My last question was on the Drd involvement
STFC-RAL-CR03: you mentioned to cool
STFC-RAL-CR03: topics. And is there something preventing?
There is nothing to prevent anybody
STFC-RAL-CR03: doing any of this. And if you want to.
STFC-RAL-CR03: the
STFC-RAL-CR03: the stamp of multiple Drds, or whatever
STFC-RAL-CR03: that you want to do.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So I only listed here. These are just.
STFC-RAL-CR03: These are the people that are seniors from TV somewhere. So with the Ord 7. That's a everybody.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Certainly.
STFC-RAL-CR03: if you are interested in some.
those those
STFC-RAL-CR03: to stop me
STFC-RAL-CR03: the
So
STFC-RAL-CR03: this is great.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Maybe I could just add it
STFC-RAL-CR03: point to what plums this was asking about, and it was a talk last month that I I mean you may very well. But in this certain about this D. Iv thing there was. There was a talk by Ali Gri on the question of
STFC-RAL-CR03: how you go to small and smaller feature sizes, and and of course the problem is that it costs
STFC-RAL-CR03: per run. Escalate rapidly as you go to small if you're putting packing more and more in. And so the year of the the output is tremendous per chip, but the the cost and production cost of development is much higher, actually gone up. And so
STFC-RAL-CR03: the trick is to get it that you only have one or maximum. 2 engineering runs before you go to production.
STFC-RAL-CR03: and that is, we've been found dramatically, as we know on that score. And so in industry, what he pointed out was the ratio of verification. Engineers to design engineers is something like 4 to one. So there's a huge evidence, and from the beginning, all the way through you have the verification, because if you, if you put your blocks like this, then we're not going to be able to verify it. So it interact differently and so on. So this is all really moving up, and I think industry is.
STFC-RAL-CR03: is far ahead of us, and in terms of the of the balance of personnel and all the rest of it, and in order to get sort of back down to a reasonable number of runs. 2 engineering runs: Maximum per design is going to need.
STFC-RAL-CR03: you know, people, and a different skill set actually to in bed with what we've got. Now we're really going to go anywhere close to where the industry is in terms of feature Science versus what you say down to the few nanometer level that's
STFC-RAL-CR03: you see the same route all the time. The outside time ago is it. Either The x-axis is feature size. It's like an art that shows
STFC-RAL-CR03: silicon and ire in costs.
Here it calls for the
STFC-RAL-CR03: and everything verification that it's interesting.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So dearly we'd like something to keep this thing come back to us.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So it does happen.
STFC-RAL-CR03: There's somebody, I think the somebody from the as a critical. There is an explosive. There is someone who is working on.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah.
See?
STFC-RAL-CR03: Very honest to just a verification.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah, we should invite someone, and also in your side. You mentioned that you have collaboration with the industry project. So
STFC-RAL-CR03: is there a difference in the way you approach the
STFC-RAL-CR03: This is
STFC-RAL-CR03: yes.
STFC-RAL-CR03: it
STFC-RAL-CR03: are ready for your meeting, so they they! But that's interested in discussing things.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Here is the specification. This is what we want. You go away
tricky.
STFC-RAL-CR03: but it can also be very interesting.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We're driving technology forward as well. You know they they are just as
STFC-RAL-CR03: high speed what I mentioned.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So that's a sort of Ccd. And and C. Boss excellent.
STFC-RAL-CR03: But it didn't have that you use the Ccd. It's like a member. You register. It saves 200 frames.
STFC-RAL-CR03: so we never would have done that
STFC-RAL-CR03: commercial trial.
STFC-RAL-CR03: We're always trying to move forward, based on what the Science community wants, but that Science community includes some commercial partners as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03: They're always driving forward. But the the way that they dip right
much more.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Yeah, I think they abstract things more than or a well-defined specification.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Maybe it's something that
this let me just
STFC-RAL-CR03: okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Thank you very much for the very nice talk and also interesting discussion. Thanks. Everyone for joining today. And also we have. We had also quite
STFC-RAL-CR03: few people.
STFC-RAL-CR03: Thank you people also. We will close the meeting now. Thank you
last.
STFC-RAL-CR03: So
STFC-RAL-CR03: we'll get yourself down now. I still. Yeah. i'm thinking about my friends from.