Ullrich,Thomas S: yeah good morning everyone it's a pleasure to be here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So before before we even get going and get started, I just wanted to show you a quick reminder about our deep in the last six scattering and the kinematics so as to remind you.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of the key variables, we are talking about.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So of course as a probe and electron beam provides unmatched precision due to our deep knowledge of the electromagnetic injections.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And it's a direct model independent our way of determining the kinematics of the physics process which is going on, by simply measuring the the outgoing electron.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Let me just remind you s is the square of the Center of mass energy of the electron harder on other than at a collider we just add the he manages, this is calculated as a squared of the product of the beam energies times to.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Q Square, you all know, is the momentum transfer from the scattered electron that very often we call it rich reality or, if you want the resolution power.
Ullrich,Thomas S: X, you know it's built in X eyes the fraction of the nucleus our momentum momentum carried by this truck quark in the in the scattering process.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And last but not least, we have the elasticity, which is the fraction of the electrons energy lost in the nuclear rest frame and like X, this is constrained between zero and one.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And there is a very beautiful connection between all of those, namely that use queries if you neglect the masses is equal X times X times y.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And this equation also leads to kind of plot, you will see a couple of times in my talk, which shows you could accuse greylock use square versus look X and this gives you a triangle, essentially, which are the kinematic range of often often EP machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: As you go up in energy, of course, you increase that range, but that range is limited essentially by lines of constant why because you can only you know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: measure the electron in a certain range of Why is too small, it goes along the beam line and if it's too large.
Ullrich,Thomas S: close to one you you just simply cannot detect it so this gives you a band of instruction, you will see this a couple of times when we discussed kinematics and detectors.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So that brings me to my talk is going towards the electron is quite as you heard there's some quite some excitement these days about this new facility.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I will show you a little bit the status and start with, however, with the motivation.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So I think the motivation of course comes from quantum comedy nomics and we can steer at the like ration as much as we want, there are some.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You know, really exciting phenomena which are emergent which are really not everything from this like Raj and one is as a total freedom, the others confinement.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I think there's an elegance and simplicity in our strength in nature, strong, for us, which we do not fully understand, I think all visible Meta you know, is made up of course one smallest.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And all strongly in the acting Meta is really an emergent consequence of this, many body clock Rwandan dynamics and here's this famous.
Ullrich,Thomas S: vacuum picture, this is the Q city vacuum, this is a two and a half times three and a half for me cube and you see the guru on and clock fields fluctuating there and so.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It is not an empty space, you see the vacuum is quite exciting.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Particularly if QC D, on the other hand, is is really a benchmark for new physics, as we all know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you look at the structure functions measure Tara, this is a fantastic result in a fantastic also understanding of of of the structure of the proton we can calculate just jet cross section, we can make predictions are using.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Particular diffused it in a stunning fashion, and that is because at that moment that the the week you see decoupling, which of course comes from the US and tonic freedom enables our systematic computation So in principle, you can really ask, are we all done.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In our understanding of QC D and I think this is where the electron iron collider comes in.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I will talk a little bit about I call it the frontiers of our ignorance and the many things we don't really understand and you see the first of all is the mass person, are we know that the hicks is responsible for the masses that makeup roughly 2% of the nuclear mass but.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There is much more to this So where is the rest of this 98% of the MAS una MAS list but somehow they did nomics must be responsible for all the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: difference and how that works, we really do not know what.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The other one is the protons been possible are after you know 20 year efforts are we know that the quarks balance and seek works carry roughly 30% of the spin off the, off the proton and we measure that only in the limited X range.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We know that now from the latest rick data on that ruins carry 20% of the spin and we have to wonder where is the rest.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It is just the more you know it's a bit more than the number of and have an entire playlist will end.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Between intrinsic properties in the action of squawking gluons they are the spins off the quarks there's a spin off the blue ones.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And what many people think, where the rest of this 50% sits in the angular momentum of the quarks or the angular momentum of the clones and I think we have to disentangle this we cannot say that we understand QC if we can understand the or can describe the spin of the proton.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The other question is, how does it look like in transverse momentum in transfer space and how do these distributions correlate with the overall I look around properties, such as to spin direction, for example.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And that brings us to a topic which I mean people talk about the EIC will hear very often that is 3D imaging.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So let's have a little bit closer look at this i'm the mother of all functions is is is more or less the the so called weakness function.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That can be kind of consider the quantum mechanical calendar part of a classical faith based distribution, if you want.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And it was originally considered not measurable, but there are reason efforts which actually indicates opportunities that one can measure it.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But if I integrate in Luke momentum space and I integrate the impact parameter out I get something which a function which depends on X and the transverse momentum katie.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And that brings us to the physics, of the transverse momentum distribution or so quality and these.
Ullrich,Thomas S: On the other hand, if I look and coordinate space in the integrator what transfers momentum.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Then I get this has been an impact premium dependent part of distribution functions or, as you all know if I integrate both out I get our good old part of densities our you know pdfs.
Ullrich,Thomas S: On the other hand, if I look in the coordinate space things become interesting if I make a fortune, for your transformation of the impact premier to the Mandelstam cheese of the momentum transfer.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And then I entered the world of general pato distributions.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And, on the one hand he gives me the form factors, if I integrate over X and if I.
Ullrich,Thomas S: include the school is parameter, then I really enter the world of the generalist part of distribution, which are kind of the most complete description of of a proton one can have.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So another topic is, if you look inside the boosted proton.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So if I probe the structure, we all know that, as I go to higher and higher energies, I see more structure.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The boosted proton that I see that suddenly fluctuations on time deleted and on the strong in the actual time scales.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And these long live gluons can radiate where I see that they radiate for the smaller ones, so what happens here is actually our.
Ullrich,Thomas S: As I you know little deeper and deeper and higher energies it's an explosion of the glue on density and we know this cannot continue, there must be an endpoint, because otherwise we violate human integrity.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And this is also kind of you know, indicated in all these pdfs if you look at.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And you see that you know already belong a below an ex of point one essentially the proton is completely dominated by the ones.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So how do we solve this problem, and the answer is that we have a new approach, which we call it a nonlinear evolution.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So that means that we don't only have you know the splitting of blue wants to produce clones, but that we also, for example.
Ullrich,Thomas S: include are the recombination process this are replaces our good established eat club and BF kl are we using equations in QC.
Ullrich,Thomas S: With something new, which is called a gym walk our evolution equation or its mean field equivalent this bk.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And this is the so called saturation regime which is characterized by a saturation scale que es which only depends on X and this region and also the underlying theories, very often referred to as the color class compensate.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Now, what is the interesting thing is that we we We understand that our the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The Federation scales scales, with a to the one third, the reason for that is simple, if appropriate, the X over a certain distance.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This distance depends on one over X, that means if X is small enough this length can become very large and as it becomes large the wavelengths becomes large enough.
Ullrich,Thomas S: To be of the size of the nucleus, then it coherently interacts with essentially all nutrients in the nucleus.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And that causes this enhancement of us with a, and that is quite substantial, so I showed you here, this is again to square versus X.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This is the case, if I you know would look at EP and saturation scaling up collisions.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But if I go to a I have a quite substantial boost here have a factor of six or more, depending on the nucleus.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In the saturation scale, so the nucleus is kind of in this case really an amplifier for deceleration scale So if you want to look into saturation phenomena, where the onset of it.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The nucleus, would be the right place to look at now is that the correct picture we don't know is there, working with proof of balloons federation, I think there are hints from the llc but it's not very clear and the question also is the collectors condensate the correct theory.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So, and all these topics I think I showed you is really kind of them automation which products to the EIC yes see physics, excuse me, the physics.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think the idea is to investigate with precision, the universal dynamics of blue wants to understand the emergence of chronic leukemia matter and their properties.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And again, the central questions is how are actually see quarks and gluons and their spins distribution space and momentum insight in pune.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And how to color charge influence and colorless jets interact with a nuclear medium, this is the whole question of hats on the station and fragmentation and, of course, how does a Nuclear Environment affect the quarks and runs and the whole.
Ullrich,Thomas S: issue which we just discussed if this actually wants adoration kicking in in the range, we can observe it.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So these are the central questions, and now we have to think about what Does that imply for machine now you want to access the glue.
Ullrich,Thomas S: glue on dominated region, and you wanted to this in a wide kinematic range and, of course, you want to do this, also an opportunity for zoom because, as I showed you.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you want to look for gluons Federation are so you should see deviation from the club.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Are and from a BF kl and so you have to be in the particular region but, of course, much of the magic happens and then under particular reach them you hope to learn something so you so you have to cover that which brings us to an energy range from 20 240 gv.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Whatever be talking about the spin structure of anything we have to have polarized electrons and protons and hopefully also for light nuclear beams and I will explain you later why we need very high polarization.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And if you want to access the highest glue on densities I showed you that deceleration scale goes with a to the one third and unique nuclear beams up to the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: heaviest you know up to renew them for certainly up to that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And if you want to study all these observer was really in a systematic way you need luminosity aren't you need at least hundred times what her I had which brings us to something like 10 to the 34.
Ullrich,Thomas S: per square centimeter per second so this kind of defines the machine parameters are and the machine will be realized that brookhaven.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And we will use part of the rick facility at brookhaven which is right now operating at its peak.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We will use our the existing Hatton storage ring which can store protons and up from 40 275 TV.
Ullrich,Thomas S: For the EIC, we have to are pumping a lot of punches almost 1200 bunches at 1pm current and to reach really the highest luminosity is, we will need strong cooling, which is currently a huge r&d for the Program.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We have to build a new element electron storage ring which keeps electrons up to at amp G on this one will be many punches with 2.5.
Ullrich,Thomas S: been current and we will limit ourselves to 10 megawatts Superman radiation power, this is a self imposed limits, we can put we could go higher and it can't be Japan went higher, but as I said, this is what we, you know set ourselves as the limb.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And then we also will need essentially an injector, which is an electron rapid cycling some for trauma or pod rcs which is he on the outer ring.
Ullrich,Thomas S: which actually has to go around the experiments and that has to do something with the spin with a spin transparency and are there to heighten the na city in the actual regions they look very complex and they will have a 25 million right crossing angle.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I will explain why it is across the angle here on so you always have first higher luminosity if you bring the focusing magnets closer to the interaction region.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And you want to do that without too much are harming the experimental setup in your acceptance.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You need team separation without separation.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of the dipole and simply, you have to reduce the synchrotron radiation, so you don't want to bend the electron going to lunch what a crossing angle gifts you, is a significant loss of luminosity, as you can see here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Because they don't fully overlap this punches and the solution to that is what we call crap crossing.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That means that these head on collisions are restored by rotating the punches before colliding and this punch rotating crapping is accomplished by.
Ullrich,Thomas S: By transverse the deflecting a radiofrequency resonators so called crap cavities and.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There are some challenges with this it's a nonlinear process.
Ullrich,Thomas S: which can cause severe being dynamic effects which you have to control and, of course, our there's a physical size of the crap cavities which you have to take into account in the design of your interaction region.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So, since I assume that many of you will work on on the llc or let me kind of give you a little bit of you know the difference between an electrifying collider and 100 machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Typically, on a hadron collider you polite you know the same species ppa there's an exception that you, of course, can also collect collide PA but in general it's the same species.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Here we have very different species either P, or a.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That boosts the kinematics which is not the case in hadron collider and you will have a high activity at high rapidity, is our while hadron collider most of the interesting physics, of course, happens at MIT rapidity.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But I haven't collider you deal with been big rounds, which are mostly related to being gas events, and you have high pile up.
Ullrich,Thomas S: On if you work on an electrifying collider you have, on the one hand, of course, the team with deal with the hadron backgrounds.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But you also have a new element which is the synchrotron radiation which you have to be very careful about that it doesn't black out yet detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: are to get higher luminosity see a little ankle it will have very small bunch spacing of nine seconds compared to 25 seconds 25 nanoseconds now at the lsc I mentioned it already on the LG has no crossing angle, at least not yet on while the eeoc has to deal with the crossing angle.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The I see a runs at a very wide range of mass energy is driven by the physics, while harder on machine are usually as a smaller energy range.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So the beams are polarized, and that means that the statistical uncertainty of your measurements it's not only dominated by the luminosity as at the hadron collider.
Ullrich,Thomas S: but also by the polarization of both teams and you can now see immediately that you know if you are, if you have a polarization which is not very high.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You immediately lose on your statistical uncertainty, so you not only have to watch essentially the luminosity but you always have to control and optimize your polarization of the machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So this is these differences, of course, also impact the detector acceptance and you know also possibly detector technologies.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So um it's interesting to look at the luminosity need versus squared s needs are for the oC and there are topics which need high energies low X i'm, for example, you know saturation of physics.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There are topics which, like the GPS, the general partner distribution which needs a very high luminosity so there's a whole range, you have to achieve, and that makes the the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: EIC quite an interesting machine compared to what is available, otherwise so here this fixed target experiments which we had at slack.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Now a Jefferson lab at HARA here's the hierarchal either the only people either we had, which of course has higher energies, but much lower luminosity.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And here are the machines which the high energy physics Community had talked about quite a bit so that makes kind of the the EIC quite a unique machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: With a very wide range.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Worldwide, so I think it's an interesting spot to be in here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So what is needed experimentally, I think we can also categorize the measurements for the eeoc in three different our processes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The one is inclusive, so you really only care about the electron, then there are seeming inclusive processes and exclusive closes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And as you come from inclusive or exclusive processes, you also need see the need for.
Ullrich,Thomas S: For more and more luminosity solid measurements for exclusive processes will need something between 10 and hundred inverse from divine white an inclusive the is you already systematic limits, after more or less one inverse from to one.
Ullrich,Thomas S: inclusive, you need perfect electron ID and you have to reach the lowest X squared seem inclusive, of course, focuses on the hard ones you produce.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So you need PhD over a wide range, and this is very critical as I will show you an exclusive processes demand of course of large Tremonti city forward and backward regions here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And let me start with the electron just to kind of you know, illustrate how dramatic, that is, this is this again this famous Q square versus exploit.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I showed you about and I market to five regions are where you know where we want to have a look at let's look at the lowest X and the lowest Q squared so that gives you the the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The azimuth Lang or so here I indicated the rapidity, so this is five years of repeating minus five repeatedly minus one again the electron comes from here, the problem comes from here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And as you go further out that gives you the momentum scale here, so what you see in this kind of corner of a space, essentially the electrons going.
Ullrich,Thomas S: massively forward rapidity, is of course at the injection energy year that case that was done for 20 now if I go higher in X, not much changes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I still have to look, you know forward in the minus four minus three only then, if I go up in queue Square, can I see a little bit an increase was still the domination is very much forward.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And then only if I get larger and larger in queue squared I get actually something at MIT rapidity, so that is here where essentially the main detected the barrel only comes in.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This would be you know large Q square judge physics, but for the interesting physics at low X and lo que squared you really have to do with electrons.
Ullrich,Thomas S: which go very much forwards, so that means you need over wide range excellent electron ID are you need, of course, equal rapidity coverage for tracking and color imagery and, of course, our alone material budget to reduce crime strong, so this is the first constraint in the detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So if I look, especially at see this same inclusive, it is, are you see that we need a massive coverage with P ID the physics requirement is that we separate proton counts on protons over a wide range of for a PDT roughly in the order of eight units, six, seven units, maybe.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We need three to four Sigma separation for a pi over K and at least one Sigma for K over proton.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And what it shows you here's the rapidity range and the momentum, this is for for pions and what you see is this dramatic difference.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In the backwards region that means where the electron goes we you know, have had runs up to 10 GB but in the in the hadron em Cup, if you want forward, we have to actually measure up to 50, and that is a real challenge.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you need that good separation and you have to cover up to 50 GB you need more than one technology to cover the entire momentum range, otherwise it will not work.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You need, of course, high purity and low contamination and I think is this pod is is is one of the demanding things we have.
Ullrich,Thomas S: When we are designing public sector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So this is a brief review of the requirements are which comes from physics on on the machine, it has to be on a detector, it has to be you have medic detector low mass in our tracking.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Luckily, there is moderate radiation hardness which we have to live with other than ideology, we need to measure the electron the end jets in roughly four minus four to four, we need a very good momentum resolution how we need a good impact promise resolution for heavy flavor physics.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Since, and I will come to that in a second since we very likely can only use the solar needle field means, of course, tracking in the forest region more critical.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And that, especially for the electron requires very good color imagery in in in the backward reaching the electronic going which.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of course, as I mentioned earlier, you need accident PhD over an enormous range from up to 50 GB more or less so, I think you know color imagery in the backward region and the PhD I kind of the critical factors are in the design of often eeoc detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So, how does a general purpose detector will look like um.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Well, the central detectable being pretty much like like every many other standard high energy physics detectors if you want, there will be vertex and tracking.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There will be P ID which is not a very strong.
Ullrich,Thomas S: focus at the lsc on hadron collider electromagnetic color retreat than the magnet and then how to run a color which we.
Ullrich,Thomas S: What is unique, as I mentioned here is that we have essentially repeat the same thing in the left on in the hat on and cup tracking PhD electromagnetic color imagery and hot ronnie color with me.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I told you, we have to get this very forward going electrons That means we need very forward along the beam pipe.
Ullrich,Thomas S: As what we call a lo que square tagger, we have to detect the luminosity and measure it are very high, precision, because we will vary energies quite often.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And, of course, in the in the hard one going direction you need the the zero degree coloring meter and you need for we're tracking so it's it's not only the central detector, but you have massive instrumentation along the same lines.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So who is behind that are there's a strong user community which forms are in which formed in 2014 Of course there was something there before people were interested, but this kind of was a formal on.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Building of of start off of strong user community we have right now are roughly 313 hundred Members from.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Over 250 institutions and it's really worldwide and I show you here kind of distribution of the Members and we have 25% people from Europe.
Ullrich,Thomas S: 12% from Asia, which is, if you actually look it's very interesting that the US participation in the lcs also ended up in the order of 25% so long path towards the electron iron collider um.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of course, you know project of that size doesn't come easy so over the last 20 years every time the US plans.
Ullrich,Thomas S: For the next 10 years and makes this nuclear physics long range plan, we were there, and we were pushing and then finally in 2015.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We got the recommendation to for construction and it says we recommend a high energy ultimate high energy high luminosity polarized electrifying collider is the highest priority for new facility construction following the completion of the radio to be facility in the US.
Ullrich,Thomas S: At the same kind of the same time, the user group on, of course, was pushing we.
Ullrich,Thomas S: published the White Paper, which makes the physics case.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And we just couple of two months ago finished the yellow report what we call yellow report, which goes into great detail about the physics requirements so to make the physics, you know these the physics process here what this extra requires and and.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We also evaluated the detector concepts and started to seriously talk for the first time about what one needs for for detectors now.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you want a lot of money from Congress it's Nice and good that the nuclear physics Community says, this is an interesting thing.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But you need a bit more so the Department of Energy asked the National Academy of science in the US to evaluate the sea, and it was a glowing report which came out in 2018.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the committee finds that the science that can be addressed is compelling fundamental and timely so that was a big boost.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In December 2019 we got critical decision for those who do not know what critical decisions are this edit every large project in the US is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: divided into four critical decisions or five from zero to four for a means that the project is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: is done and operation starts and CT zero was initially That means that there is an agreement that this is something.
Ullrich,Thomas S: One needs to build so that happened in 2019 this was a big step in January, then brookhaven was selected as the site of the electrolyte and collider and in just in January 2021 we had the CD one review and vilest you learned.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Last week, that we actually got CD one which is a big big step for us, that means that we are now a real project.
Ullrich,Thomas S: and things are going on.
Ullrich,Thomas S: For the CD one review will be also published this you know, whatever thousand page big conceptual design report for the machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: detector planning is a bit tricky the Department of Energy supported EIC project includes only one detector and one I are in the in the reference costing.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The ice is designed to actually support to detectors and user community is very strong in favor of course of pushing for two detectors.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The reason is, of course, complementarity like allowing for cross checks, but also to improve systematics, as we have learned from her up when you throw together the Zeus and the age one data what you can improve their is just just mind boggling.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So one idea is that you have maybe two I asked with a different luminosity of square meter squared s profile so that one has the peak in luminosity may be at the high energy and other peaks of the lower energy, there were lots of discussion.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The problem is that a second detector need substantial international contribution to be realized.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And in in May last year, there was a call for expression of interest from different countries and there was a huge response to that and it's really nice to see how many.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Institutions, not only in the US, but also outside of the US are really interested and kind of you know, show their interests and their resources.
Ullrich,Thomas S: They issue.
Ullrich,Thomas S: They call for the detector proposal was issued in in March 2021 we have now.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I will talk about this groups working on detector proposals concrete the call is for two detectors luckily.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the deadline is December, so there is not much time in March and December to actually put us a full fledged proposal, there are three collaborations are no a product collaborations are competing for two hours.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The first one, I want to talk about his core, which is a compact detector for the eeoc.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It is a hermetic and very compact general purpose detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: is based on a new two and a half tesla solenoid is two and a half meters long one meter in the inner radius so it's rather small hasn't also the contractor gem trackers on the end CAP.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Let tongue state.
Ullrich,Thomas S: For for the forward rapidity and tongues tungsten shush like for the other half has shrunk of PhD and the whole shebang, as usual, so this is relative compact, and it requires a new magnet so the next collaborations called he.
Ullrich,Thomas S: got his.
Ullrich,Thomas S: name's comes, this is interesting it's a ese comprehensive chroma dynamically experiment, so that is unique in the sense that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This group plans to reuse the existing barbell magnet which was transported from slack to brookhaven.
Ullrich,Thomas S: A couple of years ago and it's used in the in the heavy iron experiment s phoenix which is now under construction.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So that magnet is considerably longer than the one from core it's three and a half or 3.7 meter long and has a one point fuel for meetup boy rages, so it has a lot of more real estate there's a lot of you know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: subsystems integrated here the central tracker is like most of the detectors is a is a maps detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The electrons are they talk about scintillating class, I will talk about this in a second and let tongue state.
Ullrich,Thomas S: had one color mitre had ranchi ID with the modular rich, this is on the forward region in the central tracking awesome is silicon electron P, it was say glass.
Ullrich,Thomas S: and high performance stick a detector for PhD, as I mentioned so forth, so this again here, the idea is kind of to to to save some some costs by reusing as much as possible from the existing as phoenix detect and especially the magnet.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The third collaboration is Athena that's probably the largest of the three collaborations this is based on a new magnet lot of entry tesla probably in the error free tesla.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And is pretty much following what was described in the conceptual design report and the magnet is is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: 3.6 meter long and has even bigger bore of 1.6 meters are giving us much more real estate so there's kind of two designs either southern yellow helmholtz on the discussion and since it's a new.
Ullrich,Thomas S: New magnet you can also optimize and work on the project activity which is important for tracking and the forward to region, while you know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You have a homogeneous field, of course, in the core of the of the magnet but the moment, if you go in the forward to each new or the backward which, which is so important.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You have to really to optimize the field to get the best tracking out of this and again it's a very complex detector not unlike a chain many things are, but you know the bigger field, of course, gives you a little bit of an advantage in terms of tracking.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And it's a big magnet and it has to fit an existing halls, but this is all worked out by engineers on this is a very tricky process but it's possible.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So last few minutes, I want to talk a little bit about the technology readiness on mentioned detectors pretty pretty pretty challenging.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That means also that we have to use our you know all the technology which is available to us.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We had to, or we still have this very successful generic Yossi detector and R amp D program since 2011 it was funded by the wreath rick operation wasn't the word of a million a year.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We had quite some participation of over 280 people from 75 institutions, and I think it helped to establish most of the technologies which we you know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Using the reference detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There still need to complete R amp D, for now, maybe the next few years is all, of course, a little bit delayed call with some developments will talk, it will take longer I will talk about this in a second especially are the pleated maps detectors are, and of course it's always a six so.
Ullrich,Thomas S: it's a very tricky thing and, of course, for most of subsystems you want a large scale prototype to be tested in test beans.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So I mentioned that this generic r&d program ended this is now taken over by the project, so this is more or less targeted r&d which will only.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of course, support systems that are actually approved in the proposal process, so you know what R amp D will be funded becomes a little bit clear only the beginning of next year there's a new detect advisory committee will take care of this.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But there's also a very strong desire to continue is generic on the floor, especially future upgrades and there are still a very compelling ideas around which we want to pursue I give you at the end now three examples of of r&d which was kind of voice related to.
Ullrich,Thomas S: To the eeoc the one is the silicon verdicts detector I should not say vertex because now it might be an all silly contractors.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So the space, the resolution has to be you know pretty pretty small in the order of 510 55 micron which you can achieve with the 20 micron pixel pitch very thin regulation things, and it would be cool if one can actually use air cooling and liquid.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think the consensus is in the Community, that the technology of choices, the maps detector.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There is none of the existing map sensors meets all of the requirements, there is an LP chip, which is very close in could be you know, with some modification may be a reasonable candidate, but.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The, the idea is to work on a dedicated EIC map sensor that is kind of the desired solution.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There is efforts which we join from the from Ellis on to build in so called ideas three.
Ullrich,Thomas S: tracker.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This is sensors in 65 millimeter CMOs technology and the first ma aileron was was done last year.
Ullrich,Thomas S: This is, of course, the idea is to leverage on this large effort at CERN We will, however, have to fork up and build our own sensors to develop.
Ullrich,Thomas S: derived map sensors for the outer layers which are non stitched so the it is really, really is the idea that you have, as each way for scale sensors and, of course, as you go to larger radio need more area that this is not practical.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So the other thing is to do a rich detector, for example, where we would quite some some r&d efforts in it is the first two were rich, which is used in a certain window field.
Ullrich,Thomas S: it's compact and cost effective solution for the our problem of having a continuous momentum coverage in the forward to each region from three to 60 gv.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And of course it has a to radiators, hence the name duo rich compile a combined see to f6 gas and an arrow jail radiator.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And then you have outlet reflecting mirrors through with us the backgrounds and requires quite some some sophisticated 3D focusing to reduce the for the Center area.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I think first prototypes I know you know, on the on almost realized, and you can see, this fantastic performance, which comes here from simulation that with the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: With the combination of the gas and and the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the arrow gail you get a continuous you know coverage here from from few few gv our two to 6070.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The big challenge we have other for the sensors and this goes for all your ankle.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Of course, or enrich detectors, and the reason is that you have to have a reliable highly pixelated for the detector which works up to three tesla and this problem is not fully solved in.
Ullrich,Thomas S: silicon for them on the Playa where, in the past, rejected for which detectors to July sensitivity to noise and also their sensitivity to thermal neutron damage.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And if you, you know have seven or eight triangle photons are you kind of you know, do as much of this.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the other, of course, our multi channel played the mts are they are very expensive and they are not tolerant to magnetic fields are we have many groups which the tests.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And you can see that the the deterioration is massive so you know the moment you are in the order of one tesla this thing breaks together.
Ullrich,Thomas S: There is a hope there is a large area people second funnel detectors are called LP PDS, this is promising but it's not silly full applicable for the EIC because it needs pixelation and their efforts currently underway to do that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: last thing I want to mention other scintillating classes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: which are quite interesting, and this is a replacement essentially for the Tongue state crystals which are have two issues, first of all they're very expensive.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And there are a few vendors left the ones which we could use for cms were produced in a factory in Russia which closed its doors.
Ullrich,Thomas S: seekers in China produces crystals of quality, which is not great creature in the Czech Republic.
Ullrich,Thomas S: it's a little bit better, but has moderate production capacity capacity and also now raw material shortage so.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And on the stage come to scintillating glasses, are they are built at the keyboard the R amp D is happening at the Catholic University of America.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In Washington in the so called vitreous state laboratory so fantastic group of people who are working on on on essentially class simulators.
Ullrich,Thomas S: His performance is similar to last class and in many aspects, but it has 30 times the light and just recently, we have the full size now actually we can you know, create crystals of 40 centimeter length.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And what we are still waiting for is essentially beam tests, we have everything together, but because of covert the beam tests were delayed.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And we have to see if they actually performing team, because if that is the case that would be an very inexpensive replacement for lead tungsten crystals.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So that brings me more or less to the end.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I just want to kind of little bit outline the past of the path for the for the next year's so we hope that in in April in 223 we have so called CD to this is a very serious review.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And it will be followed, probably, you know, in December 24 by CD three CDs three is important, for one reason because it freezes the sign, and that is where the construction money starts so that means in 24 we can actually start or 25 early to seriously spend money and start constructing.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The completion of the of the of the project is kind of split a little bit there is a CD for a which happens in December of 31.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Which means start of operation means we start to take data, but there is probably not all capability from the machine in place, and that is my CD force split and we hope that essentially all the features, we planned will be in 2033 so far, I think we are well on track with our process.
Ullrich,Thomas S: it's it's very it's very aggressive the whole schedule, but so far, I think we are doing quite well and, since you will ask anyway, I think, right now, after CD one.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The total project cost is in the order of $2.2 billion, but that includes also a large contingency and if you're not using all contingency there seems to be some room that we might get our second detector funded you.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And with that um you know I conclude, I leave the arm the the the takeaway message here.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think the mess machine design is well established.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The eeoc detectors are kind of challenging and and unique in that they have to be hermetic some emphasis on forward and backward.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think the RNA program is a vital part of the whole effort, and it was quite successful.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And there are right now three collaborations on competing for to ir so it will be interesting next few months, thank you very much.
Ivana Hristova: Thank you very much, Thomas for this very interesting and complete overview of how the EIC staking taking shape really that's impressive.
Ivana Hristova: yeah well on time and we have time now for let's open the discussion and.
Ivana Hristova: And questions, please raise your hand on on so more or speak out.
Ivana Hristova: Yes.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): it's almost that was very interesting, thank you very much sure lots of interesting stuff new stuff on the detective possible R amp D as well, but my first question is.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): Is difference on one on the collaborations that you just talked about for the detectors what's the sort of mixture of.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): Membership from all all the different countries now what fraction is us what fraction is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: yeah it differs a little bit.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think he is is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: is more us based than, for example, Athena I think the the fraction of.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Non us contributions to or you know it see the membership for Athena of non us is a little bit larger, but then Athena is also bigger than it should so it's hard to say I told you that you know, in terms of Members that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: On average in the Community, they are 25%, but I think it's not evenly distributed, I think, in our senior non us might be on the level of 40%.
Okay.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): So Okay, let me thank thanks very much.
Ullrich,Thomas S: to know that so.
Ullrich,Thomas S: yeah I mean, as I said, I mean it will be.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It will be a very interesting because we have, as I mentioned that there will mean that do he will fund only one detector That was their statement, while the Community certainly wants to and luckily, the call for proposals includes also to.
Ullrich,Thomas S: As I said, we have to track like I think a little bit to get to, but I think the arguments are strong.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So we have to see right now the competition is, of course, who is the one which is funded out of the project, because there are the funding situation is is the easiest of the second detector will have to you know think hardware to get all the funding from.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): That do you wouldn't be prepared to split across two detectors.
Ullrich,Thomas S: No, not at all well, we have to see I mean we have to go through another long range plans to push for that, I mean you know people look a little bit of the 40% contingency that we have to see right.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Thank you.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): cannot any other hands up, so I have another question now, one on a.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): built in his hand up Okay, maybe i'll let me ask a question and i'll come back.
Murray, William (STFC,RAL,PPD): To me well, I was going to ask whether detector to actually but it's probably a maybe a bit early to be asking, but do you know anything about the radiation resistance of this this, including glasses some very interesting.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Yes, this isn't delaney glasses were tested on, and they are actually quite radiation hard.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I can send you some more information on that they expose them to well, depending on the doping off of the glasses different classes, the you know we're better system than others and, of course, this is the way you choose but yeah there, there are variations hardness is quite impressive.
Murray, William (STFC,RAL,PPD): What what sort of going on i've kind of missed what sort of radiation level you're talking about sorry.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Oh.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Why have.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Let me check Mike have some slides.
Ullrich,Thomas S: you're thinking about elysee.
Murray, William (STFC,RAL,PPD): yeah.
Ullrich,Thomas S: yeah I think.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It was definitely more than 10 to the 11, but I would have I you know, I have to look it up, I just cannot give you a PR.
Murray, William (STFC,RAL,PPD): All right, but.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I just remember it was actually impressive.
Murray, William (STFC,RAL,PPD): that's that's that's good i've normally be wanting to yeah Thank you.
Ivana Hristova: Thanks Claire you, you have your question now.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): Okay, thanks.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): I was going to ask some of the thing to build i'm actually a different question another thing on the on the rich that you talked about you have era gel in there.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): yeah and he didn't have great experience with our adele so critically, do you depend on getting to those know my mentor your pod.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In the in the forward region yeah it is, and I think the yeah Eric gail, although the people who do the R amp D are now telling me that there are now typically avigail you know was coming from Russia, but there are no companies who produce a serious.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Quality error error jail, so that this is not the largest problem anymore.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But I think it is still.
Ullrich,Thomas S: On on my list of high risk items I would say I agree with you.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But the arrow Guild pod is critical, we have to get it.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): You have to get to those moment okay.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And, which is also a little bit tricky in the barrel.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Because a deer you know covers up to whatever six seven gv but also leaves a little bit the the the lower PT particles out.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And so we are now thinking very hard, how to cover that in the original design, we had a tpc but right now, I think all collaborations replace something I can hear you see with a with a all city contractor.
Ullrich,Thomas S: which you can make more compact.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Which is nice in terms of tracking but you know you lose the dx capability of a tpc which helped just to fill this.
Ullrich,Thomas S: gap at low PT and you know, there are no ideas around like.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Having an additional layer to the silicon detector of elegance for acl got into its timing.
Okay, very interesting thanks.
Ivana Hristova: Oh yeah many thanks Claire and Thomas may ask a question about the beam you mentioned about the crap cavities and my question is, are there operational set up in a in a non in a in an accelerator, that will be before EIC and and why Why is he is he cannot reach the energies of HARA.
Ullrich,Thomas S: OK.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So the question about crap crap crap crossing I thought that it kept is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: What i'm not sure, but I thought that cake has had his prep crossing, I know that there's talk about pricing for the whole luminosity elledge seeds.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I don't know where that stands on.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I don't think there's much experience in operating from prep crossing and a collider.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In that fashion, but you know we'll have to see.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And what is the same question.
Ivana Hristova: Yes, just to comment, yes I think i've heard about kick.
Ivana Hristova: them and that they are still maybe having troubles to reach the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: goal luminosity and the I don't know.
Ivana Hristova: i'm not sure it's the crap cavities that are causing this but indeed.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So I don't know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I don't know if this was a bunch beam or continuous be mid CAP.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But this is beyond my expertise i'm sorry and what was the second question again sorry.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I don't know.
Ivana Hristova: You know, you might you on the plot to show the energy REACH.
Ivana Hristova: Our accelerate Tara was higher.
Although at lower luminosity.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Yes, it was.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I mean.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The one thing which limits, of course, the energy is the cost.
Ivana Hristova: We.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We have to I mean by by we using the hydrogen ring from from the relativistic heaven heavy iron collider you say from an enormous amount of course.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you build an EP machine the hadron pod is obviously more expensive for.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Having said this, and you know people talk about this behind closed doors, is they are ways of getting this energy up and the way, is that you use the current harder on synchrotron rick one of the recordings as injector and go into a small aperture new small aperture.
Ullrich,Thomas S: superconducting synchrotron and the, it is the fact is that a small aperture which saves you quite a lot of money and that could go up to our energies and.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But then, you of course compete also with ideas of the FCC which you know, nobody knows where this really stands.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And how this goes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: We have to see.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But there is room, but this is a few job great which goes beyond you know it's like when you build llc and you talk about the high luminosity ality phase it's hard to say, but I think that there are opposite.
Ullrich,Thomas S: They are opposite opportunities which might bring the energy up, you will not bring the the electronic energy much higher than the 18 you can maybe bring it to 20.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But again, the limit there's synchrotron radiation and with a hard one beam one could push a little bit I mean we are already running at higher energy than rick because the rick magnets have some research we're in a few years.
Ivana Hristova: Okay, yes, and that clarifies it, I understand, and it makes a lot of sense yeah I see.
Ivana Hristova: and
Ivana Hristova: So yeah you mentioned about the detectors and the technology, and it seems that that while most of it can be built with the existing technologies, there are still a lot of challenges and.
Ivana Hristova: What is the time scale of when the when the detectors might go into operation is it worth waiting for more R amp D.
Ivana Hristova: r.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the air now yeah.
Ullrich,Thomas S: us so yeah welcome to the US, the problem now is.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That the doa is not willing to.
Ivana Hristova: engage.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In R amp D.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Beyond CD three.
Ullrich,Thomas S: CDs CDs idea is that you have a risk free project and you're going into it.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And that happens in 24 so we have essentially a couple of you know, maybe one two years where we can kind of continue the R amp D.
Ullrich,Thomas S: It is clear, and everybody knows that we have to go a little bit beyond you know we cannot build all the needed a six in two years, just.
Ullrich,Thomas S: impossible, and you know typically it's fine if they come then then later, but the problem will be the funding because.
Ullrich,Thomas S: To he doesn't Fund beyond R amp D PV on CD three so that will require some.
Ullrich,Thomas S: negotiation with them.
Ullrich,Thomas S: But we have much more on the on the thing I mean there is, for example, for hydrogen color imagery.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The requirements in the forward reach not quite challenging some people claim we need something like 35% more of a square he 400 kilometer.
Ullrich,Thomas S: that's a pretty challenging thing, and there are ideas which have to do with the simulating glass that you have a class where you can nicely separate the simulating from the children cough.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the trek and having having the trunk of and the scintillating light separately, you can cross correlate them that helps you massively.
Ullrich,Thomas S: to correct the energy and that should bring you maybe if you're lucky in the order of 35% of a square, so this is one thing, people are looking at.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The silicon it's a bit the tricky thing I think the end you know.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The UK is heavily involved in the Sea of silicon consumers, you know and.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Yet we hope that this you know it s3 or will fly, but this also will take a little bit of time.
Ullrich,Thomas S: and
Ullrich,Thomas S: The trick is a little bit if it's you know, there will be no project or targeted R amp D, but we might get some generic R amp D and uncover that it needs a little bit maneuvering to get this done.
Ivana Hristova: I see Thank you all right, and one yeah I see a question again from Claire.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): Sorry it's not good last question um.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): I I don't remember you saying much about triggering all data acquisition.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Oh no I didn't because we don't have a trigger with streaming.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): ustream okay so um do you have particular.
Shepherd-Themistocleous, Claire (STFC,RAL,PPD): challenges that you need to meet for that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You know, and the thing is so the good thing is, if you if you compare know on the ice with llc is that, first of all, the Cross section for an.
Ullrich,Thomas S: EP collisions is considered within the microbiome region, not in the Melbourne.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And the multiplicity is low, so we figured that we, in principle, I mean if we are running at the full luminosity we have an index rate of half a mega hertz or so 500 keywords.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And we could write all that.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Assuming it's a serious or reasonable service oppression which you can do with fpga and maybe do some heat reconstruction.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Also on the fly, but we will need not this massive.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Reduction like you have it at Ellis with is over to our computing farm or with this trouble mechanism for managed to be.
Ullrich,Thomas S: That we won't need we could, in principle, write it on.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The big unknown, he is the background.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And, and this makes this is the thing which makes people a bit nervous.
Ullrich,Thomas S: um I don't know you know if you recall it HARA when when HARA had to update shut down for two years or three years and then switched on again they detect us all went dunk and they took a while to figure out what background, but was an elder sheet from it and.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Some of these are really hard to estimate, I mean if.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If stream if the backgrounds and norm, then streaming becomes a little bit of an issue, but right now, I think we all think it's under control.
Ullrich,Thomas S: The problem with the streaming is, of course, that you need a fix for that so that limits, a little bit, the number of a six which, on the market, which you could we use because many of them are not made for streaming.
Okay, thanks.
Ivana Hristova: I am one really one last question for me looking into the future, are there so given when he is he was proposed are there on the horizon proposal for what might be coming after he I see, and I think it is the, it is the first machine which is going to collide electrons with.
Ivana Hristova: With no clouds yes.
Ullrich,Thomas S: Yes, I think.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You know, in the US that certainly will be.
Ullrich,Thomas S: I think the last the last collide us will build.
Ullrich,Thomas S: stay with us for a long, long time since it has it is such a flexible machine.
Ullrich,Thomas S: You can fill several decades, you can run a different energies and every energy has its reason right if I want to learn about the mass about the.
Ullrich,Thomas S: trace our family of the QC you know tensor I have to go to measuring Chamonix or more, you know but sodium threshold, so I have to go with lower energies.
Ullrich,Thomas S: So I want to measure this iteration I have to go with higher energies, I can have different species, so there is a huge kind of face space, you can.
Ullrich,Thomas S: explore, so I think this is a long program ahead, and I said, you know as very often with machine they're always ideas for upgrades.
Ullrich,Thomas S: If you want to go really to the low X frontier, which I think is very challenging you probably still have to look at what happens at CERN.
Ullrich,Thomas S: And I don't know where that stands, I know that he was not too successful.
Ullrich,Thomas S: In the in the European strategy planning on but you know if there will be an FCC up on that would be, of course, the machine to look at the lowest X possible and that will be just stunning.
let's just think about this.
Ivana Hristova: I see Thank you.
Ivana Hristova: yeah Thank you everyone for joining and let's play that was a very interesting seminar and discussion, and I think we can close and let you have some sleep.
Ullrich,Thomas S: very much thank you everybody.
Ivana Hristova: yeah Thank you so much, Thomas bye bye.
Everyone.