STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Thank you for the introduction, and thank you for the invitation. I just learned some of the things that aren't getting out.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Thanks so much for the introduction. So it is, it is a big pleasure, actually, running for a lab that's actually involved with LPIDEO, so in a way, I mean, it's kind of, a big pleasure, in a way, to introduce Liquidos to you, but maybe you may have heard, some about that. So, the name of the game is about,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, going against transparency, what we have been doing for forever, almost, when it comes to detection.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The first question, basically, would be, why Liquidoo? Why would we want to basically look for yet another technology for detection? And there are many good reasons for that, but let me try to kick off by throwing the big reason. So, one of the big reasons, of course, that right now we have is that we are, I mean, surprised, in a way.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We have the standard model that basically can be characterized as an absolutely stunning success, but in fact, we're also surprised by the fact that this is a mystery, the success of the standard model in many ways, and we know the reason for that is because it is incomplete. We know right now
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: that the standard model, despite its success, is incomplete, and this in itself is kind of a paradox. And, because, the question is, what is actually, basically, what is missing, and where is that, basically, these missing elements, essentially, of new physics? And this is why, long story short, we want to have, basically.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: explore nature, better and better with higher precision, and it is to try to basically try to see a hint for these, new possible physics. And this is despite, I mean, the huge effort, essentially, and the theory and possible,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: scenarios, it's clear that this is about, basically, compelling new experiments with harder, in sensitivity, better control of backgrounds, higher efficiency, and so on and so forth. So we are facing a major experimental target, problem, and this is exactly why, in a way, we're trying to improve our detectors, our ability to see the nature deeper and deeper.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, let me first kick off with a little disclaimer. I'm a neutrino physicist. I'm going to try to talk about a technology from a more generic way.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you may notice that I'm going to be talking about neutrinos a little more than maybe I should, but I will use it as an example, but if you have any questions regarding your specific expertise, and we may try to address that, and, bear with me a little bit. And, there you go. So, I think that, liquid can go well beyond the neutrino, basically, scenario, and this is,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: feature of the, of the technology. So.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In neutrino detectors, in fact, we have these beautiful pictures when it comes to our detectors, so this is Supergamacan, Nobel Prize 2015 for the discovery of, neutrino simulation, so one contribution, very important contribution to that, and it's not the only one.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, when it comes to these kind of detectors, we typically, the reason why detectors are very large is because cross-section of neutrinos is extremely low. This is just a feature of weak interaction, long story short. And I'm going to disappoint you right away, I don't have a way to prove the cross-section of the neutrinos, so the only thing we're going to do is just make our detectors positively better. So, essentially, with those few neutrinos that interact, the idea is to basically learn more and more
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So that we actually basically get the most of these, rare, opportunity to see neutrino's interacting.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you would see, actually, that these detectors, and one of the main features is that if you want to make a huge detector, you may ask yourself, I mean, what is the problem with the neutrino detectors? Well, it's cost. Long story short, if you want to have a huge detector, and you actually want to basically discover these huge volumes, you need to simplify it, as much as you can, and that implies, basically, compromises. Long story short, you lose information. And this is to allow to stand the name of the game, see if neutrinos will discover.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And it has been a challenge that, honestly speaking, and we're still fighting, I would say that we're fighting every single day. And it's about basically trying to make something that is cost-effective, as simple as we can, to lower the cost, and at the same time, as complex enough to get extract as much information from extreme interactions.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, and long story short, I mean, this implies, typically, basically, I'm going to highlight, I mean, some examples, backgrounds are there. And whenever you see backgrounds, that we cannot recognize signal from background, very often, I'd like you to think this way, this means technology is an invitation, typically, but especially in neutrinos, maybe not necessarily the same with gold, providers. Different rationality when it comes to detection, but to a large extent, essentially, whenever you see these
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: background issues to a lot of space technology. Technology basically is running out, running out of munition, capabilities, handles, and this is basically what it comes down. So, let me give you an example.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: of a beautiful detector, Nobel Prize also, this snow detector that now has become the snowplash experiment. So this detector basically has an acrylic, and we have now a scintillator, used to be heavy water or water inside, and there is basically this, we call it this pattern where the photomultifiers are around. You can see the simplicity back, the elements of this kind of…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: machines, and, and this is basically kind of what we've been doing. I mean, this is one of the most beautiful experiments architecture that we have done with this, along the lines, but this is kind of… this basically…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: give you the spirit of what we do. So, the long story short, we have these
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: volume where in which interactions are going to be seen, and everything else is about trying to understand the backgrounds. And let me use a number so you appreciate that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The main problem of these detectors is that they have not hit… whenever you actually… your detector gets hit, you get a flash of light. This is proportional to energy. You say, okay, something hit me, but you don't have a clue of what actually hit you.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Generally. And, and this implies, essentially, this vector has to be shielded. You have to put, basically, surrounded, basically, shields.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But sometimes you can use even the planet overpower as a shielding, because it's cosmogenic, and basically it's unavoidable.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And to understand what I'm going to try to convince you in this seminar, and this is all about technology. The technology is running out of fuel, in a way, and this is going to basically be the problem. So, let's consider, for example, these photomultipliers. Beautifully, I mean, they are put apart. You may wonder, why do they put this space? This is wasting a huge amount of volume. As a matter of fact, this volume that you see here.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is barely 10% of the total volume that is actually… that has been excavated. And this excavation has costed, basically, hundreds of millions of years.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Or pounds, whatever you prefer. And actually, the rest of the volume, this volume, this bathroom volume, is already twice.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: basically almost 3 times bigger than the volume that we use with the neutrinos, and if you actually consider that it's another external volume that you use for muons, as a matter of fact, actually is even 10 times bigger. So, long story short, you put, let's say, 100 million euros, basically, into the system, and out of that, only 10% of your volume is being used for nutrition. And that's
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Let's face it, not very impressive, if you think about the numbers, but the reality is, we didn't know how to do it any better, but we, up to now, we don't know how to do it any better.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The reason why the photomultipliers of this so-called buffer is there, a fantastic idea to some extent, but actually, basically, if you make the detector three times smaller, is that there is reactivity from the photocaths of the photomultipliers, and this reactivity is overkilling, so you just put your volume away, and of course, this is great, but at the same time, you lost an immense amount of volume.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the other problem, basically, with cosmogenics is that these detectors don't have any tracking.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: No whatsoever. In fact, these detectors are very good to say, my neon started here, my neon basically went out there, you have an entry-exit point, and then you're basically struggling with a straight line and a little bit of praying halfway through, because the reality is you don't have a clear cognition of whether the neon is going to be straight.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: or the new, basically, it comes, kicks, essentially, something with high momentum, and basically it goes out there. You don't have a plugin in these detectors, and to a large extent, this implies, understanding cosmogenics, essentially, as I said, you know, coming from the meios, typically is very hard. When it comes here or here, you just don't know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, in fact, this cosmosaic problem is, to a large extent, the reason why all these detectors are placed deep on the ground.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Sometimes 100 meters, sometimes even 2 kilometers, essentially, underground. And to a large extent, this implies that, basically, when it comes to neutrino physics, we are a little bit steeply recovered, basically, in the analytically life, think of that way. So we have to put all our detectors, all our neutrino civilization happens, essentially, underground. And of course, I mean, everybody's dreaming.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: to get out of the carbon, in a way, but this is actually very hard, and this is one of the things that, actually, that we're motivated in liquid, or at least we think that we want to try to try out, is can we get, basically, out of, basically, the underground, basically, walls, and really start, basically, conquering the surf?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If we did that, I mean, if you have detectors are looking something like that, and this is just, artificial intelligence, I mean, I just checked, I mean, what kind of, basically, mutual detective you get, out of, basically, ChatGPT, and that's basically what I suggest. I mean, not a bad try. We can show something better later. And, and the idea, basically, is that now, if the detectors were in this position, that would be much, much, much cheaper, essentially, to reveal. For example, these kind of tanks could be supported
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For example, the petrol tanks that are being provided right now, not far from, well, also this far, far enough from here, but nonetheless, I make easy detectors are bad. So, we know how to do these kind of things on surface and make it big.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Just to give you a little bit of, basically, an appetizer, I mean, when it comes to basically what we are regarding neutrinos, I mean, let me highlight reactive neutrinos basically were discovered in the 50s. In fact, this was the discovery of the neutrino itself, and today, I mean, this was a Nobel Prize, by the way, and today is completely background. This means the technology that we use today for reactive neutrinos, I mean, essentially is requiring
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: something new.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Long story short. When it comes to solar neutrinos, discovered in the 60s, that was also a normal price. In fact, this is also background limited. It has to do the detector deep underground, and even so, it acts extremely hot.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: When it comes to atmospheric neutrinos, in the 80s, this is also backward limited, that was also not a price at the time. If you look at supernova, basically, neutrinos, also not a price, also backward limited. In fact, everything is backward limited, but you can see that it was highly appreciated, essentially, to see all of those.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Accelerators, I mean, since the 2000, roughly speaking, they are still basically limited by statistics. So far, Novat2K will be mistakes, as you have a seminar, beautiful, I'm sorry I missed it, but this morning. So, actually, you've seen, basically, that even accelerators are starting to get to the systematics, and this implies technology is soon going to be basically there. That is the case of Hy2K, essentially, and Dune, but for T2K and nobody's then the source
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Essentially, statistics is the problem.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: gene neutrinos, discovered in 2004. This is also Backer Limited.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is actually almost like a reactive neutrino, and you may have heard about, basically, double beta decay, or proton decay. If anybody sees that, clearly that's going to be highly appreciated, and essentially, I think it needs to call. But nonetheless, these are background-limited scenarios, and this is something that people are searching. This will imply new physics out there. And this may be one source of view for neutrinos. These are the neutrinos produced, essentially, in the Big Bang, essentially, era.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, this is something well beyond our reach so far. People trying, but not even our ability to say it, and this would be, of course, something extremely important, especially for our understanding of the universe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Long story short, as you can see, the menu of the neutrinos today, and I'm not saying that this is everything, but just to give you a sort of a source, every single source of neutrinos that we know of, that we can use, are completely limited by backgrounds, and this implies technology may be the limitation, and let me try to basically give you some examples of that, by bringing liquid more into the sea.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right, so what is Liquid?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, Liquido, long story short, is about this image. I think can be summarized, essentially, in one image. So what we want to do with Liquido, and this is going to be, hopefully, a bit surprisingly counterintuitive at the very beginning, we want to basically confine the light
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: locally, without using… not using any type of external, basically, material, not any kind of pixelization or segmentation. So, to allow us then is the art of getting information we'd like, but without actually using external links. I will explain why this is important.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this, to a large extent, what we want to do, but now instrument it and master it. Long story short.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And in fact, Liquid is about using opaqueness instead of transparency. We're basically moving completely to the ground.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yes, we are desperately indeed, you may call it so, and indeed, that's probably basically a good way to see it, and to try to basically articulate imaging in a multidimensional way. And I'm going to emphasize, basically, that in a few minutes, and hopefully convince you that this is something that maybe we know how to do now.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, when it comes to imaging, let's consider the building blocks, what we want, if we have to dream, is something that whenever there is an energy deposition, essentially, we're able to measure the energy. We had already that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And we want to know what energy that is a one-dimensional element.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: in space, X, Y, and Z, essentially, and if you have basically a point, essentially, if you have a sequence of points, you can have lines between strucks and points, you have information, and of course, timing, which is actually even very simple, I mean, to today's technology, we're
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: reaching maybe 100 of picoseconds, doable in the kind of detectors. This is optional, but nonetheless, this is actually relatively easy.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Easy to do with instrumentation. If you combine all this information, this means that you can have, basically, a lot of multidimensional information, and if the vector is fast enough, then because TPC is difficult to get a frozen image.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: What we want, essentially, is to see images that flow, so we can see, actually, like a film, what is actually happening at the speed of light in the actual data. I'm going to see that in a few minutes. I'm, of course, simulation, as for now, but you will see in one second. If we can essentially unlock all this information, you will see that we can actually start, basically.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: re… I mean, kind of…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: redoing, I mean, all the neutron physics that we have right now.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So the way to do that
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is to confine the light, and that is easy to say. You can do it with a black hole. We don't know how to do the depth of black holes so far, unfortunately. And so the only way that we can do that is using basically another technique. So this is how photons manifest, essentially, in GF4. Brains essentially go to infinity. These are fibers, for example, just to give you an example. And if you actually go from this water-like scenario, and you go into a mix-like scenario.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Photons are no longer going to behave, like, essentially, like rays, they're going to behave sort of like a whirlpool, essentially, we're living, essentially, there. And what they're going to make, essentially, is an effective
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: point in space that is proportional to energy, and it has a timing, so it has position, it has time, and it has energy. So long story short, we have, basically, this is the building block of our imaging capability.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And that is that whenever there is one energy deposition there, this translates into a point.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Essentially, in space. And this point may vary in size, but we can make it as small as something of this size. And the idea, basically, would be that when we have events, we would have put in points in space, and we would see the correlation of time of all these points. We were able to work out, essentially, time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But going from this parabine, this is Taurusin paradigm, to this paragraph, this is exactly what we're gonna do. I'm gonna use a scattered, elastic scattering, this is radius scattering, and mean scattering, actually, that comes for free. As a matter of fact, what is difficult is that
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is actually natural. In fact, to make the detectors transparent, we actually work extremely hard, basically, to make that happen to the levels, for example, Super Cataganda, I mean, to the level of almost 100 meters, I mean, it's the dimension end. What we want to do here is actually the light to scatter a lot. Of course, we don't want the light to be absorbed or to be lost, because otherwise you lose information, so what we want is the light to stay locally.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And what is going to happen is that the photons are going to stay tuned around the walk exactly, just…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Very close to the source. On average, around the block means the photon never… it's just, on average.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: on the position, on the source, and everything else, basically, is going along. Of course, if the light stays local, you cannot use photomultipliers located very far away, so you need to go and hunt for this information, and we're going to put fibers, optical fibers. These cannot be transparent fibers, because these fibers will release these fibers
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: basically collect the light. I'm gonna highlight that in one second. So, long story short.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All the physics of Liquido is just… just up in the sky, not today, actually. There are no clouds, so I'm basically exploiting my… if you have, basically, your eyes as a sensor, and the same as the light source, the reality is that the blue of the sky, this is really scattering, and this is exactly one of the scattering we're going to use, elastic scattering of photons. And we can also use mini scattering, and the difference of this one, of course, is that you get
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: basically are very coral dependence, and these, the molecules in the water in the cloud are actually of the right size, so you get this coral rest behavior, and this is why you have white versus blue in the sky, as a matter of fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the size of the molecules, in fact, in the cloud and in the atmosphere are different. And this black that you see in there is just this opaque name, so essentially the light is not able to go through because it's thick enough. But long story short, everything on Liquid works exactly that way. All the physics is actually there. So it's just right in front of us. So a nuclear detector, the best liquid detector that we want, if we want basically strong scattering, is a white light detector
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If it's me scattering Driven, and in fact, we're gonna go by
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: four orders of magnitude. Essentially, the scatter, you're gonna basically bring it down by four orders of magnitude.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, essentially, this is a huge change. So, in fact, this light that would have gone without interacting with our scattering over tenths of meters, I mean, it's going to interact within millimeters or submillimeter, and this means that we can make light bulbs of this sauce. Essentially, it's more than we have.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this means that we're confined photons stochastically within, basically, centimeter scale, or less. It depends, of course, your scattering length, which, by the way, is a variable.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So liquid is about that, essentially, and let me just show you how liquid. First, and the most important element, if you don't have that dependency, you need to go to the source of where the light, basically, the energy is deposited, and then you need fibers. These fibers have to be either wave-shifted fibers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: basically scintillating fibers. Both of them actually work. Actually, these, you can consider that a wave-shifting fiber is just a cheap scintillating fiber. A scintillating fiber gives light by itself, and the wave-shifting is just doing a little bit of wave shifting on scopes, basically, essentially change. Why do you need that? And the reason is because if you don't have that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you don't get light into the fibers. The fibers are designed so any photon that comes in goes out, just by sending it out, unless there is a little scattering, but this is basically to the permil level or so, even less. So generally, if we don't basically make these fibers effectively active.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you don't get light inside the fibers, long story short. And this is why we need these kind of fibers. Clear fibers do not work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, well, your slide level would be basically 400 of mine, which is lower.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: what they're about. The detectors will rely on several elements. We need fibers magically hanging in the volume for now, and there's a lot of engineering to do that magic, and I really mean it strongly, because we've been, for more than 10 years, actually, developing this magic, and a lot of this magic actually is being developed here at Route, as a matter of fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We would need, basically, new type of centimeters that are going to be opaque. They would be, essentially, milk-like, or cloud-like, or…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: yeah, my unit is light on anything, essentially. This is basically what happens.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: fibers, fast electronics, silicon PMs at the end of the fibers, and very fast electronics that is able to identify every single P, and this is an example of basically waveform reconstructions that we need in double show, for example, and is able to basically give you every single P in every single fiber.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So that's the kind of things that we use, essentially, for video. So let's build an event.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, imagine that you have, basically, a detector with a lot of fibers, little light, and every single point here is given by Gen 4 and tells you I've got some energy deposition. In fact, these are basically two cameras from a postage on a collection. Every single point is a quantum.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the last point is a force-over effect, essentially associated back. So every single point is just an electron, it's a point-like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then, what is going to happen is that every single point is going to transform into a little light bulb, where there are tens of thousands of photons, actually thousands of photons basically there, and then you have to multiply your detection efficiencies in the fiber, the directions, but what is going to happen is that in the top and the bottom, you're going to have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: two identical images, in principle, if you have some full sensors, and these two images are carbon copies, essentially beams fitted 50-50, essentially, to the top of the bottom by the fibers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this means that everything that is correlated top to bottom means is you need light, everything that's uncorrelated could be a fluctuation, but it could also be dark noise, for example, and things like that. So that also gives you, basically, a certain ability to basically cross-check and improve the auditory ranges. What is very, very important now is that you see this detector is completely unsegmented. You just put the fibers in the space.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And it's the opacity of the scentilator that is giving you an effective segmentation. We call that effect cell segmentation. In fact, you don't need to put anything, you don't need to split the detector, the volume of your detector. This is just done automatically, essentially, by opacity, and this is actually very good in NEV, because putting walls implies in the detector, so that's very bad, generally, at least.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Be very careful about that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Of course, if you're in the hot NGV, the only problem of that is that you're gonna lose a lot of photons, you're gonna hit, essentially, the walls, and the walls, typically, even with a good reflector, you're gonna lose a lot of the light there. So, long story short, what you get out of that is that you get more light, the light is always collected, providing that absorption of the lighting in the reach, but essentially in comparison, and you get this beautiful topology, naturally, essentially, out of the text.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You may be wondering, well, in this simplest configuration, you can put fibers that way. Nothing other than the wallet basically prevents to do that, but you can also be tiny.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this basically is light. So, basically, if you are in a nanosecond, picosecond, basically, bridging, you can figure out Z, the z-axis was on. Essentially, the caveats, essentially, you need more light and so on, but you can basically figure out where, more or less, these positions are located. So, this works like a typical TPC, but now TPC moving at the speed of light. In fact, you can think of liquid.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the best way to think of Jupiter is a TPC, Instead of using slow electrons.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: policies. We just use… I mean, this is the highest duty cycle nature can adapt, providing neutrinos don't go faster than the speed of light.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You may have heard about that in the past. So this is the images that basically we are basically talking about. So this is the positron annihilation, so you see, basically, the positron stop.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: DEX, this is an apository at low energy, so we'll show you higher energies later on. And you see the emulation back to back. In fact, this is basically the physics of a PET scanner, is to see the first PETs, and actually the first content, and try to work out information. And you can see, in GM4, this is the color is proportional to the amount of photons in every fiber. Every point is a fiber.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You can see that you see better with opacity than with transparency. Transparency, in fact, washes out all that information, and in fact, maybe you can argue that this is not a point light, so this… you can say that this is not an electron with a high probability, but you wouldn't know that it's exactly, basically, a positron, as you would see there. You could say that maybe it's a gap.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And we'll talk about that. So this means that you can distinguish now electrons from positrons and gammas, and as soon as you do that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Your shield being surrounded by the detector is supposed to be done, because most of the reason for the bathroom, remember, is the cameras coming into the detector, so this means you basically start removing shielding out of the detector.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: hopefully we're going to work that out on the cosmogenics, and that's the next step when it scans. Now, once you have fibers, we can think of this simple scenario. This is the cheapest liquid scenario, we call it one dimension liquid, or vanilla liquid, if you want to put it that way. You get beautiful position in X and Y, because you know the position of fibers, you can be submillimeter. The previous detector that I showed is 10 centimeters, so we have gone basically by almost 3 order of magnitude.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In terms of position, 2 for certain, three, maybe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But now, basically, the timing basically is worked out on Z, as we highlighted, but now you can start playing some tricks, and this is just an example of that. How about if you start crossing your fibers, now you can do the center of mass. If you move… if you think that the center… I mean, the event was here, what you will see is that your events diverge.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: some fibers, they meet in one place, this is your position, and they diverge otherwise. So, just by changing the position of the optics of, sorry, the geometry of how you put the fibers, this is just a trivial example, if you can do the mechanics to do the work or whatever.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you're very funky, and you may have some tricks. You're a mechanical engineer and stuff, but that's… that's another issue, I mean, at this moment, but you will get matching information. What is beautiful about that is that you can combine position information with timing information and produce, essentially, the resolution Z, probably by another magnitude, in comparison to just using tiny, and typically you need more… more light.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, let me give you another way to basically think of liquid. Imagine that you drop a little bit of ink in a glass.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, and you have a lot of information on what happened originally. If you wait, basically, to the infinity, this, basically, ink is going to diffuse, and everything is lost. That's exactly a transparent data.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Everything's diffused.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you cannot go back to what actually happened, because information has been washed out. You have still the amount of leak ink, which is proportional to the energy, if you like, like this example, because that basically triggers our intuition. This is what we're doing today. Indeed, we don't have topology, and Liquido is going to basically try to do that. And it's done for free, because the photons
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: don't last forever. This is not like putting milk in your coffee, and the milk stays forever, and you get your coffee going from dark to basically brown, or whatever, okay? That's exactly the same rationality. In fact, the photon's ephemeral's life is going to last for a certain time, is going to essentially
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: petrified as sort of anchoring timing, essentially, the information. So, if you want to get better information, will both fibers connect to photons faster? That's what it comes down to. So the game of liquid is going away from… is going from here to there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And that's essentially what you could use. With fibers, in a bunky way, I think it's much easier, much slower, I agree with that, but we want to do that essentially just speed of light. Which is not negligible, but it's still possible.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But, long story short, once you have, basically, this formation of these light bulbs, which you can find the information, this means that you can actually work out. And now, basically, it's time to have fun, do physics on that. Now, before we actually get into the fun level, this has a political implication.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Which is that we need to now change the paradigm of simulation.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because intellectually, until now, it was about transparency. Anything that was not transparent, actually, we seem to be. Because it was useless, basically, for physics, or for elections, what I understand. Long story short. So, now we need to basically go back, essentially, to the origins into life, and start looking
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: all the things that can scintillate, and they don't have to be transparent natively. And it turns out that scintillation is actually a very mundane process in nature.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Many things scintillate. What is very hard is to combine scintillation and transparency. That is very hard.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, actually, we have a lot of things out there that could be scintillating, and they are opaque, and they have never been used. That's why you never heard about it, even on me, as a matter of fact. And this is exactly where you open a completely new universe of materials, science, and this is, of course, with a lot of people, essentially, in the detection world, our branches have an immense amount of fans, as a matter of fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: one of our best colleagues are photochemists, material scientists, because a lot of that has been done already, and we just didn't use it because it was not transpired. Long story short.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Let me give a couple of examples of that. What we're gonna do, in fact, the way it works is very simple. Energy.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is deposited. Quantum mechanics is going to make, basically, get this energy transformed in your scintillator into non-breaking, because this quantum mechanics, I mean, is basically exciting the scintillator in your solvent. So, in fact, you have a
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Essentially, it's like a glass of water, and we put a pinch of salt, and that pinch of salt is actually on the permit level, is producing the light.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is quantum mechanics channeling all this energy, as a matter of fact, and producing light of the little pinch of salt in the water.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So this is actually typically the solvent, and this is the scintillator, the first scintillator. And what we normally do in transparent detectors is that we put photosensors directly, and we measure this light that is emitted.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Or, if you have a very, very large detector, a snowplast that I showed before, you put a second scintillator, so the photons of this one get absorbed and re-emitted
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: even closer to the greener, essentially, and you optimize this better with the photosensor, so your detector is even more transparent. That's basically how Juno works, that's how, basically.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That will show we work this way, we have business, for example, this is just an example, and this is how snow glass actually works, the detector I showed before. It's too big to just work on one single ventilator, so it would take two.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, what we do in Liquido is very, very simple. We just go bring up the second simulator, and we put the fire. That's it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: these works.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because we know that's exactly what is tuned. So this is tuned to that, and basically the color is tuned, and that's it. That's what we're doing. And instead of photomontipliers, we put silico photomodifiers, and we're done. So, if you think about it, I mean, we are actually recycling
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: almost 100 years of knowledge by basically doing… from that point of view of the detection chain, this is mine. This is a delta, basically, change in the detection chain. This means the efficiency is going to be high. We know the type levels relatively very well, because we are basically in the shoulders of giants. This is 100 years, basically, of detection that we're basically relying on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: chiplets, singlets, full shape, all that. All that works. Everything that works in the normal scintillators should work in the liquid, provided that the opacification is not basically going to spoil it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The Fesopic scintillator, we built it in Paris, in fact, back in 2018, and we were doing something a bit spunky, we were dreaming with an idea, and it's that instead of, basically, we put something to falsify the scintillator, and we were wondering, okay, if we put now rubbish into the scintillator, that's gonna kill the light, but what if…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: we put another scintillator in our liquid scintillator. We take crystal scintillators. So we get the opacity, we get the scattering, and we also generate light. So we're not putting something that is going to kill the light, but it's something that is going to generate light. So, in fact, we call this micro-crystal scenario. If your crystals are nano, in fact, the light is not going to basically scatter enough, and you don't get it basically white enough, as a matter of fact. This is why we have to stay on the micro, and this is because the wavelength of the light that we
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Long story short, so that was the first attempt, and worked to some extent. And then some colleagues of ours in Germany, Max Planck, in fact, they use wax.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: They're waxified, so basically make opacity, so this is like a candle. Remember a candle, when you heat it, essentially gets transparent, you get liquid and transparent, and when it cools down, it becomes white. This is me scattering, the photops are scattering, essentially the wax, essentially, and this looks essentially like a candle.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, it's like a template. You can… you can essentially put fiber, and it doesn't blow up. By the way, scintillators is the most stable way to have a lot of hydrogen.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Just before it explodes. A bit more, and you have, basically, in fact, your metam at home, as a matter of fact. This will cook, as a matter of fact. So see that scintillator that is just not a stable enough.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Another way to do that is emulsions. This is basically, you can call this milk. Milk is just water with some fat. Little fat, 3% typically, or 5%. Some people can choose less, but it's actually the worst for the legal point of view, better for health, maybe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, so you have water, basically, the droplets of water, micrometer. This is why milk is water. Milk is not… sorry, this is why milk is white. Milk is not white because it's white. Milk is white because the photon is scattered through me is scattered. The same? This is exactly an acid. And amylones is the opposite. It's oil.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: with a little bit droplets of milk of water, and this is what minus a milk look exactly the same color, even though you could consider this a negative one or the other, in terms of composition, in terms of water. So, emulsions, we can do it. So, if we take a liquid scintillator, we put a bit of water, we have basically a white system, instant change.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Essentially, in that case, there will be more minor mess. If you take water and you put a bit of scintillator, this is more what people call water, basically, for scintillators, but still you get it wide. Very easy. You can try. Just give it a shape, and you will have it right away.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, we have several ways to do, diesel pacification, so we can use wax, we can do emulsions, we can do microcrystals. We have tried nanocrystals, they are not that good.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the reality is that we have several ideas which are secret right now, but we have at least two or three or more ideas that we haven't… we haven't basically put into publications, and all of these ideas basically are restricted in the world. Now, we are not just in the press. If you want to make detectors, you need to master the size of the light bulb.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: to the proportional to the fibers, to a sampling problem, and this is the level that we're at. Essentially, there is an immense amount of basic physics that you can get there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We are actually, even a sponsor, essentially, by… we got an extra 1 million euros as part of one of our projects in the European community and the UK, right? In fact, to actually explore that. So, actually, we're encouraged to really push the open situation, basically, in paradigm, in many ways, and through fibers, and so on and so forth, and here we're basically now
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: creating technology for long social. As of today, we're using the technology. Now, there is another interesting feature, initially, of Liquido.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is when you actually go into the, basically, the noodle level, so this is basically what you may call, basically, the typical detectors with a lot of scintillation fibers, and have… you didn't have hardly any scintillator, so this is just fiber and hardly a scintillator.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: These actually have been done before.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Even if the simulator is very transparent, you have to understand… we have done this kind of things before, but this costs an immense amount of readout. Every, every noodle is a fiber, and you have to read it out. In fact, Liquid works more in the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: noodle soup scenario. So, in fact, you have more liquid ceiling, and this means that with less channels, you get the same level of information, and that's the power. The opacity that happens, essentially, in the growth.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is exactly what we want in Equido, so you get almost the same level of information, but you use math, much less challenge. Long story short, you can call it optimization, at the end. So Equido is just optimizing with opacity discounts. Long story. Which, by the way, has been done, and it's very expensive.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right, so that's probably speaking on that level. But now, if you have that simulator that can be opacified, this means that you can add a lot of things that before it was forbidden. Anything that screwed up, essentially, your transparency, it was forbidden. And as a matter of fact, everything screws up your transparency.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Anything you do is just against transparency. So if you want a very good transparent detector, long story short, you cannot basically put anything on that. And it turns out that now with your detector, you want it to be transparent, this means that you can start basically loading your detector, you can now basically note a pinch of salt.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But you take a big, basically, big spoon, and you throw stuff into the detector, because that is going to give you the opacity, maybe for free.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And hopefully, it's going to do all the physics. Now, this is interesting if you are basically in the low energy, because the scintillator is one of the most radio things that you can actually handle in your life. In fact, Borexino has made its number 10 to the minus 19, essentially, gram per gram during the thorium. This means that in the MeV, you almost
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Eliminating the hoover Act, essentially, all the vegetable rain after.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a little bit more complicated, but nonetheless, this is good. Fibers are very clean. Anything that is plastic is actually very, very good. Segmentation, we said you don't need it. You need folders. You don't need to put anything to the detective, because that means big doesn't manifest anywhere. All camera activities are efficient, so you don't want that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Photosensors are going to be far away. You don't have to put the photometic wires reading the whole thing, so no photometic wires, no buffer, no receptivity from the, basically from the metal. Remember, photometic layers use metals.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: silicone PMC semiconductors, these are rather, rather pure, as opposed to the metal of the player, and this means that now we can dope your system with anything. So let me just give you an example of how we have done physics in neutrino math.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, if you take a liquid scintillator, this is almost an absolute, basically, purified system by nature. Carbon protein, essentially, is 99%, essentially, of any carbon constituent having is also very clean.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And what people have done, remember the discovery of the neutrino? It was done by Ramis, using a little bit of cadmium, pinch of cadmium in your liquid scintillator, actually in the woods and pipes, I mean, to get, basically, your, your caption, no, the scintillating pipe, on the scintillator. You may have heard about loading by lithium, loading lithium. This is what we've done so far, because it worked on the pinch level.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But what if you start adding
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A new element, for example, lead, that has a cross-section, for example, of neutrino, and this is 500 times larger, the cross-section, with lead, that it would be natively with neutrinos in a carbon system.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That is the guarantee, that this means you can do completely new physics. You can do neutral currents or charged current. This means that now you can put so much stuff in your detector that your detector becomes… I mean, the doping is… actually becomes an actual detector. And this, up to now, has been impossible so far. The other possibility that you can do
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And you may have heard about that. There is a Camden Z experiment. It's actually put a huge amount of double beta, for example, elements, and used your simulator detector as a diffuse double-beta basically system.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And that is actually what has been done, and you can get named to the top network. So this means this physics
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: has been very, very practical so far. Calvin Zen has been working for a while to do the world record in WBA, and this has been on since a long time. But trying to do this kind of thing, this has been so far impossible, because putting this amount of loading was basically making different way to repaint
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Let me give you the latest status of the R&D, a little bit faster, sorry, can continue to be fast there. Liquid is a collaboration. We have about 100, basically, people. 5 in Barcelona just joined not long ago.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, our first paper actually came just after a seminar at CERT in 2019. We were in the middle of COVID. I mean, what about time? I mean, to release the project? And, and very recently, part of the highlight, essentially, is that in March last year, in July last year, we released two papers that we call Liquid 1 and Liquid 2. This is a sort of monolithic small detector, makes sort of things like the snow that I showed before.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is more of a new tracker. I'm going to give you a highlight of the results. You can find things in archives. This paper is out in jeans, and this paper is being viewed as we speak. So this is a lidal detector, monoridal detector. This is how a literal detector may look like. This is…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A little bit of a design, a lot of fibers, we're talking about 7 millimeters between each fiber. A lot for that. If you think about how much… the cost of that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It's a small prototype, cost an immense amount of money on the readout level, but this later on, the vector would scale very nicely. In fact, the vectors like spaghetti growing. So if the fibers are long, you can grow really high, and you still read the alve at the end of the fiber. So, spaghetti and the spaghetti direction… directionality is good for hypothetically.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This detector, we fill it with water, so we see Jenko, we fill it with scintillator, the normal scintillator, and then a scintillator that can become opacified by using temperature. This was wax, so we warm up the detector, it becomes transparent, we cool it down 5 degrees, and it becomes basically gray.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So this is basically, transparent… the transparent configuration. You can see one operator square. This is what you expect. Every point, basically, is the fiber, and this is what the detector basically is called. Essentially, we make the light bulb, and most of the light, almost basically 50-60% of the light, is in two fibers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, the light bulb is extremely confined. This is what we measure on data. This is what the Monte Carlo says that you should see. In fact, you see every single point here is where the photons interact, and you can see the photons only interact when they hit the fiber, directly.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Whereas, when you actually ask the Monte Carlo, I mean, how this looks like, the photons are interacting everywhere. That's scattered.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, you don't even see the fibers, because the photons are interacting brutally well before you get to the fibers, and this is what we begin the confinement that we talked about. So we inject modern energetic electrons in this system, which is actually very hot, but actually possible, and you will see why we do that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We have a very fast electronic that was able, basically, to measure every single bee, even distinguish two bees within a very small fraction of the second.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, this is our data, basically, with water. So we… what you see here is this is the beam was injected here. This is 1 over a square, roughly speaking. Chenang of light is a bit forward, but this is low energy V. This is not a patched part, but this is a very discovery part, an electron at 1 in the V.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: essentially, the monument is huge, as a matter of fact, so it scatters a lot. And this is beautifully, basically, the light, and this is, you can think, is the fibers. This is the decay of the virus. These are fast fibers, but still, there is no time of flight correction. No correction whatsoever. You see is the wrong data as it comes out of the data. So this is as good as you can possibly do.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But then you can basically feel it, this is filled with water, but you can fill it with insulator and inject electrons more energetically from low energy to high energy. The energy threshold, the Cherenkov threshold, is about 30040 kB. You can see that the Cherenkov is appearing.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: smoking gun, so we're seeing it beautifully, the Chenko versus Scintillation, just out of the box. No calibration time whatsoever. We want… without showing it away, because that is… if you have a detective that just, out of the box, gives you that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Imagine when you start touching and calibrating the whole detector. So this is… to me, this is… this is… this is the power. To see a cryo detector that gives you that, and these… this is something that even in transpiring detectors, fairly, very frequently. The best experiments in the planet are preaching something like that. So… so this is just out of the box, and that's where you see the power.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And I'll remind you, basically, again, these electrons are as highly scattered, so this Celenkov is not light moving forward, it's light that is scattered, because the photon is scattered, essentially, and we can distinguish Celenkov light through acceleration light, and this is very interesting for calorimetry. I mean, you have this dual calorimetry concept, essentially. It's called dual calorimetry, right? For calorimeters, essentially, in colliders, and it's about separating this information, but we have it in there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right, if you actually now optimize your simulator, you can see this is to get much more light, 100 times almost more, and you may be wondering, oh.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: if you actually have a scattering, you may have spoiled your timing a little bit. And you're right, absolutely. You can see this is transparent, and this is with the scattering. You can see that there is a little bit of a tail.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But this means your timing is well preserved, your rice timing is well protected, and your blade timing means that you can do so, essentially, for your timing, is a little bit slow, a slower than snack.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: More scattering?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is going to get, of course, worse, evidently so, but you can tune these. If you want to do a time of flight or a fast system, you may tune things, I mean, essentially, they can be reserved time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, so this is basic design.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: To keep in mind. And this is basically the light bulb. This is a little, basically, light bulb.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, what you're going to see is data with different energies, and you can see that regardless of the energy, you have the same by both, because it's a fractional effect.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The student?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is an analytical, basic example, not here in Monte Carlo, to make it mathematically very simple, even a mathematical, simple model of the scattering actually works beautifully out of the box. So, this is basically, within 2 centimeters, half of the light is essentially 2cm, half of the light is detected.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: within, essentially, if you want 90%, you need 5 centimeters. So, 5 centimeters, and you're detecting 90% of the results.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the night level increase.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, indeed, I mean, this is one called Liquid O, it's because the detector, after 10 centimeters.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It's okay. You don't see anything here. It's as dark as if it has. It's as useful for detection as your shoes. Use it. Well, some funky shoes, maybe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Putting that aside, I mean, this is now another little tracker. This was done in Sussex University, our colleagues, and with the contributions for the other people, this is basically how
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: liquidator, similar. This is now when it has been solidified. This is basically when it's cooled. This is how the detector looks like when the detector has been warm up. And you can see this insulator looks just beautifully transparent. Exactly the same mechanism that I just showed before. This picture is beautiful, in fact. And we can now do tucky!
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So this is basically… they have some little nice tags, where you can see the neon basically comes within… this is a little neon telescope, if you want. I just put a little diagram to say you can… the muon is somewhere in there. And these are basically the liquidated, you basically neons actually going there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But this is a Monte Carlo basic example that you can even try to see delta rays and so on and so forth. Again, you have this aurora from there that you're tracking on the millimeter, submillimeter level, and this is actually cool.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Did I do something? Well, this is maybe… this is the liquid or toothpaper, not sure what came out.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, and this is basically the tracking capability, essentially in transparent mode, and this is in opaque mode. You can see we're sub-millimeter already, and this basically is on the level of, half, essentially, 500 micrometers. But we think, with the simulation, we have been extrapolating optimized for a non-optimized detector for that configuration. If we optimize the detector to do that with heat simulation, we think that we can go below 100 micrometers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: 100 micrometers, this is a very, very scary number when it comes to tracking.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, these are very tiny detectors, of course, if you have a bigger detector, you get even better, even better time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, long story short, if you actually combine the outcome of these two papers, we have essentially convinced ourselves the confinement works just as expected. We see the topology of the electrons, which is basically every point in a countdown electron. We understand our energy level. This attack, so we lowered the energy level on purpose to be able to scale and to understand the scaling very well.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. With this scaling, we know that we can go, basically, to the level of hundreds of people in the heat. The uncertainty is a little large, and this is almost typical of a prototype. And with the Liquid O2 paper, we were able to demonstrate a sub-millimeter tracking capability.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We see the topology of the neons, we see the tags, we see the points, not so short, and we can measure the mic level that is consistent to the predictions there, so everything is just a beautiful.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: happy story. Long story short, with those two papers, we consider… I mean, we are closing to some extent, essentially, the R&D of demonstration R&D, and now we're moving into the R&D of
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: pushing, optimizing, and getting the deliveries even better. Long story short, getting more likes, getting more tracking, getting more everything. So that's basically where we're moving, and this is basically the next phase of the collaboration.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, a summary, when it comes to basically liquid, is, probably we are able to… we demonstrated in stochastic light confinement, we demonstrated that we can confine the light, we are demonstrating that we can measure temperature of light, scintillation, we can use any medium liquid and solid.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Gas is a bit harder to make capacity enough. I don't know how to do it, but if anybody has a good idea, don't hesitate to propose. We're able to dope, we actually did dope, and we actually basically opened this new paradigm of basic collection, so long story short, it looks like a happy story so far, and, despite coming halfway through. So we believe that nuclear basically just works, in fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But let me get beyond that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, let me show you some images of the capabilities. So, we're moving from this parabine, we use photomultipliers, we have this pather, and we actually, the right way.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: well, the possible ways to eliminate the photomultipliers, put some fibers, but if you just do that, that doesn't work. What you need to do is to get opacity, so you need fibers and opacity to really work out what happens inside of the stem. So, just the fibers, actually some people did that before, it doesn't work out well. It's very expensive, and you don't get more light, actually you get less light, and it doesn't work out. So, let's try to now get
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: To, point, like, basically the information, track information, which is a configuration of that, or any
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: any known… with non-app periodic information, any possible, basically, topology in the detector, and let's see how that works. So, so far, it has been impossible, basically, to distinguish electrons, positrons, and gammas. These gammas are the nasty reason why detectors use buffers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, this is the nasty reason why one-third of the detector size is gone. If you're able to distinguish that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: from a possible neutrino, or a half neutrino, instantaneously, they just don't have any buffer. This means that all this huge volume that costed you millions of euros, essentially, to dig out.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You can use it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A third of that, so this means you're effectively multiplies by a factor of 4.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All this information was washed out by the transit time spread of fucking devices. Transit temperature in a very frequent device. 1 nanosecond, 1 nanosecond of speed of light in this medium is 20 centimeters. Anything within 20 centimeters is just washed out. It's just…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: When you have a better telescope, sometimes you figure out that there are two stars instead of only one. It's very simple solution. That's what we had, and this is the kind of imaging that we're talking about. A positron is almost half a meter basically east.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: An electron is actually mediator beast. Ironically, in our detectors, Avocate Juno, whatever, we are not able to tell the difference between half a meter
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I'm fighting, you need that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is the reality of what's happening today in our day.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For this reason, we have to put it on the ground. If we're able to tell the difference between millimeters and half a meter, that's multiple, we would tell, and we can do a lot more physics.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is a camera. This would be… it's typical in a physics handling. Sometimes you have neutral camera gear for cameras, but let's put that aside. This is typical of activity. This means you can actually remove your shielding and move things. For example, in a reactor neutrino, anti-neutrinos.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All your cosmogenics are beta minus. This means that if you're able to distinguish an electron from an oxygen, your cosmogenics are gone. This means
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In principle, you can do reactive neutrinos on the surface.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Nobody has ever tried. Well, people have tried, and people… he was very happy, because the frames, the first neutrient experiment in the brain is from the neutral discovery, they were on surface, and they didn't manage, as a matter of fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It was the second one where they realized that, actually, let's go ahead and branch, and that was the one that basically managed a few years later. So, in fact, the idea is to really get detectors on surface and demonstrate that whether that is actually true. Can we go… can we get neutrino detectors now on surface? And that would be a major change in the data.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, this would imply that we can change entirely our shielding strategy, if these dramas can be gone, and we can change our over-bound strategy. I remind you that basically putting a detector on the ground
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: just by making the hole is super expensive. I mean, I think it was in June, it was probably half a billion euros, if I remember correctly, more or less, the new laboratory began, and the detector actually was much, much more expensive, so this means that half of the money went into making a hole, as opposed to making a better detector. It's a beautiful detector, I like it very much, but if you put twice the money on that, I mean, maybe you get even a better time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Now, if you want to distinguish electrons from gamas, the idea is to this… this was basically this, all this washed-out information, and let me just give you into context our latest data. So, this was our paper in the past with Montecado. This is what we get out of the detector. This is of the 5 centimeters. We did it on purpose of Montecado, we just…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We wanted to be protective, if you like, to be conservative, we made it big light bulbs, and these are what we measure in the laboratory. So if you scale that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is, I mean, of course, this is just a simple example. I mean, you would be getting off that level. This is not totally correct. The light bulb is proportional to the energy, actually to the log of the energy, like a calorimeter, and you would be able to distinguish that very straightforward. Roughly speaking, we expect a factor of a hundredth of rejection electron to gamma.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: With 90% efficiency, roughly. And that is just… consider that this is just impossible today, but that's… that's already quite a big step forward.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, if we're able to come back, essentially, to our snow, glass detector, like, well, these gammas would be eliminated, because they are recognized, so you don't care about that anymore. You can measure the vector. If you measure the vector, you move from using only 10% of the full ball, of the full space that you have, maybe to 80,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: 90% is green, of course, but this is basically the kind of potential you can get on that. So this means that every single meter cubed of excavation you pay for
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: goes into a literal detector.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That doesn't mean that you make it bigger, that means actually you just have it less, generally, as a matter of fact. And we can have native tracking, as you saw the needles to the millimeter level. This means that anything that happens along the main track, we can figure it out.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And now we can tag the neon within even less than a millimeter and see what happens all around that. This means that we are changing entirely the paradigm of basically neutrino detection, because the neon, if you ask me.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: One single feature that we need out here to revolutionize the entire field.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The mules. The mule is osmogenic, the osmogenic is gone the ground.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If you change… we change that, you change the value.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's really at the level that we're at, potentially there. It depends, of course, on your physics. I mean, the mute may hit you different if you're on an antineutrino, if you're on a neutrino, but…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the potential is almost getting there. Now, let's imagine that we have a beautiful GEV accelerator somewhere, I mean, shooting basically nice particles, I mean, for CP violation, and this is what an antineutrino, now of 2 GEV, would look like. You get your electromagnetic shower, and now you can see almost the multicolored truths.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: right in front of your eyes, and you can see your gammas, these are simple gammas, there are some adhesions of the gammas of ambulation. You can see, basically, you have your pi- that decays into a B-, and decays into a Michelle electron, and it's a Michelle electron, because you remember, if this was a Michelle positron, you should see the inhalation of the positron.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And you don't see it, this means you can track, even with a magnetic field.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's beautiful. And remember that almost all the particle stations are diamond, and this implies, long story short, that you can track without magnetic field. You don't have to care, but if you have it, even better.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A magnetic field depends on how the particle is arrived. If you're a magnetic field here, you don't care about the rotation, okay? PIV, regardless in which direction magnetic field goes, is actually
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then you can see neutrons, which is very important because a lot of the energy of the neutrino goes into the neutrons, and you can see a neutron, very slow, that you will see in one second. Proton recoils brutally, and this is a lot of the energy of the neutrino went into this guy. So if you want to reconstruct
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The neutrino energy, your really true energy to make oscillation physics, or any physics.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The energy of this guy. In fact, if you miss these guys, you're in serious trouble.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because a lot of the energy goes there. I'll give you an example in one second. So this means that we can actually basically get a lot of this information. With time of light, in addition, you can measure the energy of the nutrients. As a matter of fact, you'll see it in one second, and everything that you see there has been effectively
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: validated by the liquid of one paper and liquid of 2 paper. The tracks are there, the points are there, everything is there. Every point that you see in there is just an electron, as a matter of fact. Unsurprisingly, there is a lot of electrons in that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Turns out to be.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: all the topology, basically, building blocks have been validated, so everything, the GEV, in many ways, is just a step… is easier. You have more energy, you have more staff, you have more topology, you can do even that, in many ways. So if I take the word NED,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In general, this should be relatively an easy way. So this is just to be an example of a Michelle positron
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Looks like, basically, an electron truck with fireworks, and this is a shared electron and a shared positron.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, I'll just go back very quickly. Sorry about that. If you have a positron here, the Michel positron, you would have seen these inhalation gagmas. You would have seen some of these little things out there. And you would have said, oh, it's a biplas. As a matter of fact, new class, Michel positron.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And you plug this on, and this image is just stored.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is just to highlight that you can tell the difference between those two, and you don't care about magnetic field rotation, and bear in mind that as you go in different angles, you may not be aligned to the magnetic field event at the position. And then here you have tracking, so you can get directionality, and so on and so forth. So, for example, this event, you can consider that it's
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a supernova neutrina, and a supernova antineutrina. This is the right energy, as a matter of fact. So you're actually testing supernova, or declared accelerators, as a matter of fact. That's exactly the kind of event. This means you can distinguish the sun, this means you can do even CP violation with them.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the funky.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Now, this is an event. I'm gonna pull it back, you see neutrons. Boom, boom, boom. You can see the neutrons.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And you can see how it stopped there. All them, and he had a lot of them, and he went into those niches.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because you're punching, essentially, the nuclei and all of the energy going into that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Some of the nuclear direct, some of them are generated, and it's, you know, it's very complicated interaction, basically, the system as you go into GED, but you can see a lot of information. I chose on purpose this more, I mean, less precision. This is a detector that we make the light bulbs somewhat thicker, so we use scattering. It's less scattering, but you can see, you can play with that. You want a better detector? You make it thinner, and you put
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: More fires. In this case, it's over-designed. You can clearly see that you have so many fibers, and you don't go with. This is completely over-designed. This is just an example, this is not an optimized text at all. I'm just gonna put it again, so you can see.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, this is the speed of light, the fact there is a clock here, let me just try to stop it, because you will see that within a few nanoseconds.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: He's actually… Keep that in mind.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I didn't do that. But if you go very quickly, I put it there, within a few nanoseconds, 2 nanoseconds, you see the development event. So you're seeing how… you're seeing that the band is coming from here, and it's not that way, your reconstruction is… it's a permanent part. If you have a TPC, for example, with electrons, you get a frozen.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In this event, it's easy to know the neutrino came that way, by the way, the accelerator is that way, which is relatively easy, but in some other physical atmospherics, that is not that easy, and that very background sometimes, okay? So, anyway, this is just giving you handles, and handles is the static image again.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is basically proton decay in superchemic acid, for example, or in hyperchemic acid. And this is an interesting channel. This channel, the positron, is your electron
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This appearance, appearance, this is your CP validation channel, and this is your background CP validation by zero production.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And you can see that a pi zero can be separated from a positive, or an electron. It doesn't matter, because the shower is a shower, okay? So this is basically your neutral current background in CP violation, this is your main background, because this, in hyperchemical and superchemical, can look like this. And you can see this video.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, it's maybe a nice event, maybe it's a master event, but you know, life is… but this is the kind of thing that you can do.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this means that you can try, you can say, oh, this is not going to be necessarily bigger than HyperK, but remember that the efficiency of HyperK on this channel is about 10%.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This means that your detective is 10 times smaller, effectively, so you can do basically that. Now, who says that protein decay decays is channeling? Like, nobody knows. Protein decay wouldn't know how it's gonna get.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, it's good to check in all possible channels, and this is the kind of thing that we're trying to do in liquid, but we do proton decay in all different ways, because that's one single channel, because that's the channel of supercamic candles. If you look at Juno and Dune, they use the KM decay.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And we use dining for that. That's beautiful. Actually, Dune does time, because I don't have the timing. Do you want to use the diamond, but you only get this beautiful table in the table. That's beautiful. But that's only one child.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And what are all the chats?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I remind you, problematic means new physics. Yes, or yes. In fact, that's the and the under, is neutron, nuclear.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That is Nobel Prize Physics. 100%.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right, I stopped there, I mean, just a little summary. So, Liquido is about basically using opacity. The thing that we try to avoid, the thing that we have been trying to basically kill.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Since ever turns out to be our ally.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We just have to change the detector a little bit. Fair enough. Technology was not up to this level in the past, so… but we're getting there. And this means that we can have imaging.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: topology, PID, I mean, it depends on your physique. I cannot speak from plus minus infinity, and for all, by all possible means, we could all… there are some things that you cannot do. We can discuss about that in the questions, and but there are probably a lot of things that you can do.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We have these five primitive information, energy, position, and time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It works like an effect in the TPC at the speed of light.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Highest duty cycle, it means you can put it on some surface, that's no problem whatsoever. Principle, in fact, we were doing that with the nuclear reactors. Imagine, I mean, with a beam, if that was the case. Uniform colorimetry, with a lot of information. Stochastic and non-stochastic, relatively what I would understood. The reality is that it works like a time of flight in multi-dimension. That's when you saw the neon
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, you can… the type of flight of a neutron, sorry, that's a new… a neutron.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You saw the neutron. This is just a time of flight measurement.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's essentially what it comes down. So we have a calorimeter with a time-of-flight system, with an imaging system, working as a GPC. That's what the good is about. In fact, you cannot really speak of either, it's all at the same time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All at the same time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I can only find it a better way. This is why I make this a slide, I mean, because maybe it summarizes. And in addition.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Hopefully, we can do this. Put a stuff that makes even more physics productive. Remember, if you have a scintillator, it's hydrogen carbon natively.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You may say, well, that's not my physics is for halogen or carbon. Well, don't…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's as much as we can do at this moment. Water also is oxygen and halidine, and that's what it is. Can we make it big? Well, it turns out, Nova
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: in the US, it's our R&D… they don't know it, actually, but this is our liquid R&D in terms of scaling. In fact, it's scintillator, it's fibers, it's segmentation, we don't care.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the light collection, they actually get a reasonable light collection, but we can improve that copy speeding by a factor of 10. We believe that we understand that, especially as soon as we remove the cementation. Photosensor, they use different silicone preamps, that was another old invoke. We believe that we can do today.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Essentially. So, to allow to stand this indicator that can go about 60 meters, and we remember that all Nova had a fiber that is twisted, and goes up, and it's right now on one side, we can do that. We can do that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, long story short, nobody's already demonstrating that we can make this adapter reasonably big.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It depends on the physics, doesn't have to be always there, but clearly, I mean, Nova is a beautiful example that we can make these technologies scale.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, I think I'm going to just repeat myself, so maybe no need for that. But I understand, I think we're very satisfied at this moment. I mean, we are very happy to see that. These two papers, very important papers, they really put the… demonstrated experimentally what we think that it was needed to say.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: liquid works as planned, and the next level is just improve upon. And if people are interested in, please think about that, and maybe your physics works, maybe it doesn't. That's similar. Thanks so much.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Thank you.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: No problem. Okay, thank you very much.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A nice talk, so let's… questions.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I've got this question for you.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I was wondering if you could say, I mean.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You said at the beginning you'd speak more about phenophysics.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I wonder if you can talk a bit about, you know, other uses of liquid O technology. I mean, you know, you mentioned dual readout calorimetry… For example, I mean, you know, how…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You know, if we're talking about future Collider,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: kind of remittances. You know, what are the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: How easily does it scale? What are the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Where does it fall down? If it does fall down, what's missing at the moment? Firstly, gamer, I'm not a collaborative system in a system a long time ago.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I didn't really do it at some point, but anecdotally. So please, what I'm going to say, maybe, please correct me, don't hesitate. So, in fact, there is already a liquidocalorinetry project in France, if I be right. People are looking into that, by using microcrystals with, essentially.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: constant, very high density, as a matter of fact. And they realized that actually this is the LHCP people. They are actually… they had this segmented calorimeter, and they realized that actually it's very bad to have the segmented calorimeter, the sandwich calorimeter, like, and the resolution that you get with calorimage of this type, I didn't highlight just for the… not to derive too much.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But the resolution is just a snap.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In fact, we're using stochastic something to stochastic something, which is the stochastic term of the color imaging, and it's extremely good. So, there is some testing data, modified, and it's looking pretty good.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Now, in addition, I mentioned the tungsten because I just want to increase the density to make the calorimeter more compact, but imagine you want to emphasize an electromagnetic calorimeter, so you use, basically, more
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: carbon and collagen, that would be great. Imagine that you want to emphasize and compensate the calorimeters or something like that, you want to emphasize your neutrons.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A lot of nutrients, or capture the nutrients. So, in a way, by actually being able to dope, you are not constrained, essentially, to a very specific material, and you can actually make a salad of materials, as a matter of fact.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You can actually basically play with that, you know, put a uranium, if you like, you know, probably about this calorimeter, so you can play with a lot of tricks on there, and you just put a pinch, depending on what you need, and then you can imagine, for example, a detector that you have certain composition at the very beginning, so you don't want to spoil your beautiful electromagnetic calorimeter for some beautiful electromagnetic channels, it's like what they're about, and then you have your hydraulic basically part where you want to really compact a little more.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: and emphasize, essentially, neutrons or whatever. You can do that. So you can actually have a detector, even umbrella, in the perimeter, using only one single technology. Advantage?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You can change the simulator anytime. It's a liquid. You can remove it. If there is any, for example, deterioration with exposure, well, you just change the simulator of peanuts. I mean, our detectors are much bigger than the calorimeters in general, so just change the colorimeter. Back program.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: fibers. Your radiation is going to probably affect the fibers. I'm not an expert on that, but you know much better than I do. Probably the fibers is going to be an issue when it's exposed to very high radiation, it's a plastic, I'm not sure how it works on that. There are alternatives to do that. You can use quartz fibers and things like that. There are other ways to basically try out things. Probably more expensive on the one hand, but maybe last for longer. This is… this is beyond my range now, but there are possible ways to basically play that game.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Not so sure that I was satisfied that, but I'm not really necessary. Thank you very much. But you saw, if you don't mind me just emphasizing magic.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: these kind of events, in fact, I mean, and this is your electromagnetic, shower, of course, that leads to compact, and if this was, sorry, I didn't emphasize this, this is about 3 meters.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: in liquid scintillator, because this is very low density, and it is that you make this much more condensed, but you have particle flow and part… particle flow is called.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: part of the flow, which is… we call it energy flow. We'd love to have a picture like this. Exactly. But imagine you have many of those, and we can actually… you see the segmentation that you can get out of that. Of course, if you compound, just from solid angle, you are piling everything up in the same position, but that's the thing that you can play depending on your energy and so on the forward position you're looking. Maybe the forward, you can try a different way. Some rapidity, you can apply within one way or another. This is beyond my
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: my physics, but I hope, it inspires.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Brilliant. Thank you.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah, I was going to come to one of the comments you made right at the beginning. You talked about, relatively cleaned.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Which haven't yet been observed. So how… how are you defining relic neutrinos? What about the very high-energy neutrinos that… I know the one that's coupled during, essentially, the nuclear fences? And these are basically cooled down, essentially, as the universe expanded, and they are so low energy.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: that nobody knows how to detect that. I mean, there is a problem, I think it's a project, one of the projects using, very cold callergenics, trying to basically measure, some of that, but very honestly, very early on the firm, by the way.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I'm not sure if nuclear would ever get there. I was not suggesting that this was in the beginning of nuclear, by the way. I think on that, maybe that's the moment where today. I'm not sure how you would get there. No, I… But it's a… that would tell you you're really seeing, essentially, a relic of the data, in the same way that we're seeing the microwave.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: EV… almost, I think so.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So they would not interact directly, though, so they would be… I mean, it's based on this, basically. But, but, but we're fighting. If anybody knows how to do that, I mean, for sure, people will remember it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So then, then, other question. You talked about gaseous, stuff.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Don't you… is it possible to have any…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: COC. Sort of particulate type of gas, so you've got, you know, like smoke. Yeah. So you've got particles, and presumably they settle over time, but you could blow
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you have simulating vases like CF6, I mean, that was used in the past, in fact, and so on. Not very good for the ozone, that's anecdotic. The big issue, I think, there, this is my take, I've never tried. I think, in principle, nothing
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, it's not impossible. The problem is going to be, basically, to get enough scattering to get to pulch.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: No way. I mean, like a… like a cloud chamber. I mean, I don't think that we would have that capability. Because you need to… for example, a cloud chamber, as you know, you see the ultra, super low, I mean, they are very long tracks that would be… in… in a liquid… in liquid, I mean, density above 1.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, another book is about…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If you're lucky, between 10 to 100 micros… micrometers, so it's even the thickness of my neck, long story short.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, I mean, by using the gas, you would see these very low tracks at low energies, but the problem is how to opacify, how to get enough opac… I mean, opacity, how to combine enough with something that has very low density. I mean, a cloud.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In a way, it would be something where it's a cloud-like system, but a cloud actually is very low density, anyway, so I'm not sure how to do that. I mean, in a way, the two things kind of feed one another. I suspect, for example.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: very often the question comes out, can we do dark matter in the KB, 11 tenth of KB, or something like that? I don't think liquid would work there very well, because as you go lower and lower in energy, if you have a liquid, everything is more…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I need the light bulb.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so a positron is a point, an electron is a point, a proton is a point, everything is a point. So, well, a point, point, point, point will come back to the original problem. You don't have PAD. So, for example, that is the kind of range where liquid would work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you can, with liquidation, lower the density 06. You may go right in 06, 05, that's already funky.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: maybe you can try something like that, and then your events are a factor of two longer by lowering the density, but again, you would have to play with maybe other material. Gosh, I just don't have to do that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's what I really, I really needed. If I think I had a good idea, please call me anytime.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Just, just, I think there's a queue forming outside. Yeah, sorry. Okay. No, no. I think we can, talk… you are still, around the department, so we can talk,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: gonna tell in the corridor. My pleasure. Yes. Okay, thank you. So we have to close the seminar now. Thanks also for people on Zoom.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Thanks. Thank you. Bye.