STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Nice! That's sort of… Active? Yeah, yes.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, let's start the seminar today. It's, probably the last physics seminar for this year, and on that note, we closed with a seminar from PPD.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And probably to stop for further activity on that continent.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Brish will tell us today.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So… Thank you, thank you for this opportunity, and
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Welcome, everyone. I'm Britt, I'm the junior staff member of the EPD.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, the titles can be a bit provocative, but this is the… this is the objective of this work, which I want to present here. It's democratizing
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: dark matters and stains through reinterpretation and renormalization.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For the people who are transferred from outside and are not so familiar with this, subject and the field of research.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, we have this understanding of the universe, wherein…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You have the big band, and
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the CMD, and then the universe, which is C in the current form.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, on the… Right, in this, you have our current understanding in
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the major questions that we have, for example, What are the, Antimattering, the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: asymmetry between the metric and then the metric between the… in…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In the universe, we have the reality problem, and then we have also the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: what are the fundamental constitutes of the, universe currently? We know… we don't know quite a bit of it, so do we really know? We can ask ourselves, do we really know what we know, what we don't know? When,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: 95% of the universe is unknown.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, how we have built this understanding is.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That, mainly the today's cosmology is done using a set of equations, they're called freemium equations.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, you cannot see my monitor is returning.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, yeah, you're gonna need the physical one.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah, yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, these are… today's, cosmology is done using a set of equations called pigment equations, written down in 1922. At that time, the understanding was that the entire universe is basically a dust of, evenly distributed
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Particles, giving the rise to the cosmological principle, which is, that our universe is isotropic and hormone in it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the concepts of the galaxies came much later, so this assumption basically allows us to simplify the Einstein squad equation here.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, under the assumption of isotropy and homogeneity, and,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: With the only dynamic degree of freedom being the skill factor and the time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But… and then this is exactly the solution of… the treatment, which is the exact solutions of the… of the predecession.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But before we detected CMB in 1964, we didn't take time seriously.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so, the universe was considered, to have the rotational symmetry, the spacetime symmetry, and as well as the translation symmetry.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, that is, basically, we don't have any. So, but after the CMP, it was a realization that our universe does have a beginning, so the perfect cosmological principle was abandoned.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So… When we use treatment decisions to interpret the data from the universe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You come to know… to the conclusion that, okay, we know
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: only about 5% of the universe. Like, 75% is dark energy, and then
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You would have dark energy, which is making the universe expand and accelerate it at the late times, et cetera, et cetera, and then you have a significant amount, which is dark matter.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, when it comes to dark matter, we have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: compelling physics case, and huge interest of the community, as you can see, how how…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the interest and the public space category. So the main evidence for dark matter which comes in is from the collected rotation curves. You have the CMB, the large-scale structures, bullet clusters, gravitational lensing, and where you see some
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: sort of empirical evidence of the dark matter. In addition, I mean, in the previous slide, which I wanted to mention, was that
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The lambda CTM, which is called Dark Matter Concordance cosmology, based on the frequent equations, are essentially going through a crisis.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The lampsia model itself has, 4.9 sigma tension, and you have Hubble's which is more than 5 sigma, and that all has to feed into these fundamental calculations and assumptions.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Which we do in determining the consequence of the universe.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Cosmology is, mainly our colleagues in cosmology are debating and trying to figure out how this should be tackled.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But, in his dark matters, we do have compelling evidences, and…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A lot of interest and a lot of papers, but somewhere buried in those papers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Are also papers which mainly highlight the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: and present challenges to the whole idea of dark matter. For example, this paper on testing the CDN on geometricular rotation curve's model is a DR2 and DR3 paper.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, if you want to go into the details, here, you have this, solid line in the Wallachian Bloomer model, and the BC module represents a relativistic, modification of the gravity.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And conceived as an alternative theoretical framework to explain the object rotation curve. And in the both cases, when you do the GR properly with the latest surveys of the G, of the Gaia mission.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: At the end of this, if you can read it carefully, in this tip, this, he says there's no need for the acts of matter, to account for this kind of matter, so you have to read between the lines to say, say what they are basically saying. It would make an interesting read-up text on the, some of the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I think so. The point is, we should keep all, when we are, doing, decision, we should also keep an eye on all the other sides of the arguments as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You have the dark matter community is huge, and if we want to account for it, there are, like, if we sell dark matter, there's 49,000… 44,376 papers, which makes up for 1.7% of the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: entire archive database. Then, if you count,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If you filter it with the experiment, then there are over 10,000 papers here. So, if you count all the distinct collaborations, major phases of existing facilities, the dedicated smaller experiments, which are currently operational.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: cost, as well as the 100 future projects. The total number of searches is easily… I mean, total number of experiments are easily above over 80 and possibly about over 100, depending upon how granular you are with distinguishing sub-experiment with the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A bit in the larger, I'm bringing out the floor.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, it's a huge community, and then in addition to that, you have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: A lot of different modules and couplings which describe the dark matter of phenomenology, the unified description of them as such, different dimensions for measurables, diverse range of experiments, from tabletop experiments to collider cosmology.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, you have, combined constraints from different experiments in the challenge and, time-taking endeavor. I do know in our audience, we have, dark matter experts, who know much more than me, and who have been working in this area for very long.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But just to give an understanding of how this last point of how exactly combining our stays from a different experiment is a challenging time, so how exactly do we build
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: collective understanding of the subject, of dark matter. So, you have model rhythms, which are mainly theoreticians. They develop specific models and define the parameter space, for example, Mars and cross-section that experiments should target.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, in… in the… from its model's output is a phase-to-space match, with a targeted pass change and so on. So, for example, this is a theoretical paper, from 2014, which says that the fermionic dark matter hits, photon and effectively through the approach.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And where they basically, map, the output, the space map, and the targeted customs, which you can look for. Then.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That feeds into, experiments, data analysis, and results, so you design and create and operate experiments based on those critical inputs, you perform data analysis and publish results, setting exclusion limits across targeted, parameter space, and output would be the published exclusion limits.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, here you have another example where you search for the dark matter with an energetic jet or a ergonomic literature from the CMS collaboration, and where mainly all that particular parameter space is mapped experimentally, and the searches are coming there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Then, this particular individual searches from the experiment has to look into the bigger picture.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, then comes the part of the phenomenology, so taking, published experimental results, reinterpreting them, and reorganizing them across diverse political models.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And synthesizing the data into combined global exclusive plots. The output is the global parameter limits, the model testing results, etc. So here you have, how the critical parameter, space, from there, with the experiment result mapped into
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: this, alien mental healthcare. And this was a paper for the protocol, as a matter of fact, theories versus Softraterialization. This came in 2022. So now you can see, theory coming, 14,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: one of the experiments was during the session of 17, and then 22, it fit in the Global Excellence. Now, myself, having some experience.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: in the part of the experiment where I did show you some of the, some of the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: plots like this, I was mainly calculating the sensitivity of certain, analysis for, with, with a, with a specific, dark matter modeling for the dark scalar, or, in the BC4 to BC5. I'll explain to you what exactly
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: these are, but I was doing this, kind of, to also examples for, trigger as well, which I developed, how that was changing the sensitivity of best friend, and so on. And then on the phenomenology side, we hosted one, as a, as a, as one of the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: who, organizers of this meeting, which is stable interacting particles and, SAB.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We had to… we had results, from many different experiments presented at that workshop, and then you combine them and try to make these global exclusion plots.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then I went through this process of how exactly these global experiment plots are created from this published data and so on, and that's basically excruciatingly painful.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For people who know exactly how they know and have been doing it for all their life.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And are experts in that, it takes time to build an expertise, but for somebody who doesn't know this, it takes a lot of time.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, just to understand.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a typical dark matter model, how it can look like. We take, for example, the dark photon case here. So, dark matter models are typically characterized by the coupling.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And the masses of the particles they introduce.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, typical examples of that, extension on the standard model, scalar Higgs portal has this particular form. You have an pictor, you have the mass term, and interaction term. So, the constraints are usually shown in the coupling versus mass parameter space in the plots like this. So, for example, you have the coupling here, you have the mass here, and then you have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: different, different, experiments feeding into that particular space, AI parameter space.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, producing these limits. Now, a scale problem with the Google Cloud is one thing which, is a problem. For example, here you have different mass ranges from 1 to 10 to the power 5, and then,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: here.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In terms of if you zoom down to this particular area here, you would see it becomes
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: quite busy, and doing that, zooming down and so on, from the PDF Center.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: and the PMG plots gets complicated. Understanding these plots from where this experiment, which particular analysis this is feeding from, etc, etc, it's hard to drag down to the last
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: result level. For the plots with a lot of data, you often must zoom in the plot to understand what's going on, but, having these static plots has its limitation.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Another comment that also gets highlighted, when you have really busy plots like this. So now, when you have so many experiment results, so many experiments probing that and generating the data, you have the visualization problem as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Of this increasingly busy global course. So you have… it's basically the same parameter space, so you have the epsilon, the same model for the dark photon on the y-axis, and you have the mass on the x-axis.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And here, this is mainly the area which is all covered by, cosmology experiments and so on, from
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: astronomical measurements, etc. And then you have this, mostly collateral space covering, so you have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: from 10 to power minus 3 to 10 power 2, and here you have, up to 10 to the power 18. So how exactly you can put it in these two, in this frame, to, like, build and grow our understanding? These are the same things, but to somebody,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For example, a grad student looking at this, it's not so easy, particularly, when we know, okay, where these mathematicians are coming from, there is
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So many different experiments, doing similar type of analysis, but
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Having different views of putting it together.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Boop.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And just another example, so this year, for example, this free physics briefing book for, for ESU, you can see there's a section chapter of dark matter, which is done by the CBFM Working Group, and you have, like, I don't know, very little, less than 10 pages in that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In that particular 10 pages, there are these limits, the global limits, which are derived.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Now, in order to be able to get to the real experimental results, which was used to create these global limits.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you have insane amount of references and links which you have to see. And often, it happens that the experimental output frauds are much more different and not easy to interpret and convert into these global frauds. So you have, for example, these templates about 330 direct references in the chapter, so you keep on going, opening these tab after tabs for looking at what exactly is happening, hundreds of unusual LC data analysis results.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: are behind each, each line and each color and block.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, the things get busy there. So, challenge in the dynamic interpretation process is, just to summarize, that it requires deep specialized knowledge of physics of each model, the software, tools, and the scripts
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: which are used for this reinterpretation processes, and global reproductions are very hard to access, or trace, or reproduce. How these were created, which scripts were used, you take down their papers.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: often you will have these links, which are basically there with the paper submission. When you go to this link, the links are not working, the software is not there, et cetera, et cetera. But if you want to run it again, that's another challenge.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So then you have…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Other than that, only a small number of experts produce global lead interpretation plots, often in the narrow subdomains, often in their narrow subdomains, specializing in, for example, somebody specializing in the rapid models, or IJ models and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Quite often, and I have… talking with some of these experts, I realized that a lot of their effort often goes unacknowledged.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And what all that has gone behind is the communication which they have to do with each experiment, and trying to understand how that particular limit came, and interpreting it, and then putting it in the global plot.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, in addition to that, there's also a social logistic challenge which emerges here, because as community as highly diverse as this, and it tries to collaborate and build a shared understanding on this particular subject, how do you collaborate? How do you work? What's the best way?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: There are tons of communications which have gone into individual
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Email exchanges which are not available, so that's, not available to public.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: With these ideas, I mean, I was at a point where I could think, okay, it's a good idea for a project, maybe there's something which can be done about it. So then, I started writing a grant proposal which reviewers couldn't refuse.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: it's not just about the grant proposal, that we have, very intricate processes, like TPD, bid review process, and so on and so forth, which I'm now getting to know about. So rather than writing a grant proposal, what I did was, I tried
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Beaching out with some of,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: our colleagues, and mainly from this ISHEP program, I'm not sure if,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: if Andre is connected today, but, he is, Andre, he was a master's student from Kyiv.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, for 3 months, he worked with, with me on this project, last summer, funded by the RSF, project from NSF.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And it was an absolute pleasure to work with him, although I always used to be worried, because, I mean, he lives in Ukraine, and then he would not have electricity for, I don't know how many days in between, and then the, you know, some bombs falling in the neighborhood, and so on, so it was…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It was, you have to be always on an edge when the, you know, waiting for the next column.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I think that's called, I hope he's okay, and everything was absolutely fine, and it was…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It is a good effort made by him on this.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, our solution is basically this,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: dark matter life portal for all these challenges which I described. Now, if you can imagine, I did manage to get my hold on this very, official-looking domain, which is dark matter.web.sun.csh. It was not so particularly easy to have that, but I think this
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Gives the project a sort of official gravitas, which can bring the community together.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Now, what this is about, I'm going to try to show you some of the, some of the features of that, but we do have, for example.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: about the dark matter, how to add your resources, how to add your results, so when a new analysis on how the results can be, added, and so on and so forth, for further integration. And then you have the plots, you also have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For example, Model Explorer, some details about that particular model, and how that feeds and relates and connects to other, other, other areas, and, etc.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So… Then, you have, for example, I would like to show this example.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: that, you, when you basically go to one particular classification, and I will show you different classifications of different models, how they are organized. For example, let's say we pick up this light dark matter coupled to dark photon model, and, so you get this distribution of the model, the detection strategies, etc, etc.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Once you do that, I mean, if you… you can also look up the formula, the taxonomy of that, etc, and then these are the kind of plots which are available in the public domain, if you want to basically see that from different publications and some of the latest publications on that. But if you want to combine to this map, it can…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In theory, it can look very easy to combine these plots together, but then when you go through and try to dig up these limits from each paper they came from, try to dig up that particular data and put together in a single picture, that was a massive amount of work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And understanding it, how exactly… So, I mean, this looks like something like that. I will show you some of the features of how this can be organized, but if you, for example, so here you can also have the classification, you can group the data by correlated severity.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: SOPhysical cosmology, so if you zoom into the sporader space, here you have this, collided space, plot. And if you notice here, I mean, a lot of experiments from different fields, which I have not even heard the name before, they are putting this. And then.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And for the zooming in, you see, this particular limit, which, you know, overshadows a big area of all the collateral space. Now, where this, I mean, this has not been, published in any other…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: dots before. So, if you zoom in, this particular, limit comes from some very repeated experiments, actually. So, the X adjustments on the dark pot and trident, and Integral and the AMS2. So these, these are the two papers, and,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, if you cannot take it lightly, if you take lightly the AMS02, then 17 would not be happy about it. So then, I mean, you have to take this constraint very seriously, because this is, like, excluding sort of almost all the region of the paradise space. Now.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is one thing, some examples of it, and then, you know, we can debate about it. But that's the key thing here.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is that how we can have an open, transparent, and cooperative global limit framework. Motivation, I mean, we have, for example, so.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: how Linus, when he created, Git, to manage a growing Linux terminal of 40 million lines of code, how difficult it must have been to
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: who…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: before, the gate to trace the history of the Linux kernel, how that was, the different contributions from different people, I do remember somewhere buried in this 40 line of code, I had once created a bug report for a Linux bug, and then that was translated into a single line, which basically is somewhere there in the Linux code.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Hard to taste still, but at least it is there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, what it does, Git was enabled distributed collaboration, transparent history, and a community-driven review. And that's something which you can rely on here as well. So, we have created this public, and open repositories. The source code and as well as the data are available both at the GitHub and the Git Lab at CERN.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this is ensured, designed to ensure collaboration, reproducibility, and shared ownership, so nobody owns it, everybody owns it.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, we would like to ensure transparent contribution workflow. So, for example, when new data points enter the Global Libid Framework.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: They can enter via pull request or manage request.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Experts should review,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: if, you know, what happens to that, and that particular discussion should be open, publicly documented through these Git and, request terms. We can also use get raised, issue features to make, raise new requests for the features for the portal, etc, etc.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: In addition to that, what happens when you are, for example, one… you're taking one data from the experiment and translating it, in between there are a lot of, like, piece of code and scripts which goes into that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, how exactly those can be managed? So, well, because anyway, there would be a new analysis in that, and, you know, there would be more data pipelines on that. So, we also want to sort of make this whole process automated.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So that you have, you can have these interpretation scripts and, global experience algorithms become part of the CI-CD pipeline, so that this whole process can become automated.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then there are maintenance, some maintainers for that. And that also can be updated through PRs and MRs, and, for example, coupling MRs for a particular model, ensuring that you have consistent reproducible, reproducible output.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And for versioning citations, one way would be each tagged version of the project is archived on Zenodo and generating a DOI for longer preservation and citation, so that contribution of all the contributing authors, they would be automatically becoming the part of the author list who have committed
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: To this project.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: particular repository.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I would like to show some of the features, if you allow me to, by going to the bell.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Dear?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Before they get out of the full screen, and then click.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Let's do… It's… I mean, so this is our portal. As you can see, we have the About tab.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Which explains how it is. I had put my… so, originally to begin with, this is hosted at the same IT infrastructure, and the project is created as a group project.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, there's a group email ID, which can be used for telling there, and that is what I had put in. I didn't want you to put my name there, but then the official LLCC conveners, they said that, okay, this is not reviewed.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so on, so it would be nice, you put a, you put, your own email ID, you know, the group ID, because it wasn't looking too official, which I understand. And also, you have to put a…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: For example,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And notice that, okay, the numbers are not… so what exactly… some of the features are, you can select, choose your model.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then the model classification in itself can be debated. How exactly do we divide these models? So, cosmic models, velocity classes, or infraction portals, or model frameworks, or any of these spectrum. So, for example, that, in order to understand the effect, you can check out the dark matter, explorers. You know, cosmic… based on cosmic gloss, velocity, you can have…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: CDM, or warm dark matter, or, hot dark matter, etc, etc. A little bit about that. Then you have the portal framework, and, okay, you send your model in the dark sector, and how are the different portal frameworks? What are their key.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Couplings, and so on, and then, you know, different model frameworks based on which, critical or simplified models, extended sector, et cetera, et cetera, and then the candidate spectrum.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, you can choose which type of model you want to, then choose. For example, here you have the list. Now, I have a lot of data in which I can pull up and then create these models, but I would not want to do that, because then the whole point of
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: having this process as collaborative as possible, so that the model owners, or the people who actually know these models properly, can use it, that would be the good thing. So, for example, I have created this dark photon, so when you click here.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You see a little bit about how it relates to other classifications, for example, velocity class, how can we allow framework mapping, key parameters, port loop relations, etc, etc.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so on, and then you can have this. Now, this problem of not being able to zoom, this is a dynamic, so you can zoom in, I mean, even to the busy plots, you can see how is the classification and so on. There are different ways of seeing that, so all the data from wherever these numbers have come from, you can check and then click on it, so you can basically
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: have that, you can do different ways of classification here. You can group by, all or the experiment type. You can choose a reduction type, reduction or the direct or indirect method. You can do a time frame, whether there was fast constraints, recent, or future planned.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: experiment. There are some models that take assumption that DACN already exists, so that's also a way of classification for that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then, for example, you can hover on it, you have the, link of that, and then you can click and you directly go to where this particular thing is, this is taken from. You take it, and then…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We would also like to have embedded scripts in a way so people can immediately, from here, go to see how… from where these limits come from, how they are being translated and put it into this, limit framework.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: so that you can directly access, this. I mean, two…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: just to go to one model and try to look at all the… all the places from where these limits have come from, it can take a lot of time, especially for somebody like me who is new, who is just exploring, trying to find out which analysis I want to do in Atlas.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: looking at the permit risk space at what are being excluded, what is covered, what is not covered, etc, etc. So that's something that can be
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: very useful for a new, PhD student and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: to understand this, but also replace how we are progressing in this field. What are the new limits which are coming from where? Not having to wait for 5 years for the global limit process to be created. So, 2017 was the experiment, and then the first time it was to put it in the global limits is 2022.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this should be… there should be a faster process for that. It should not be based on some people who are experts to put in this global limit. Now, this… there are many different ways, so we have, for example, have data portals where experiments are engaged to upload their analysis and plot data, mainly.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We would like to integrate that with this visualization framework, because you don't have the visualization framework in the app data. So we'd like to integrate that and have these results also
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: shown into this. This is something that, I mean, as PTD, we are involved in so many of the different aspects of the dark matter research on the provider, as well as hosting our own experiments here. This is something which can also, be
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Sort of a uniting, sector in which you can all pull in our efforts.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I'm very, very happy if, people would like to contribute, join, be part of it, etc. So this is, I mean, how exactly, how to, add, your results, and how to contribute, etc, how to pull up… that's some of the, some of the things, links to this, links to the, GitHub and GitHub repos.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: With that, I think, I have covered all I wanted to say about this. I opened the floor for discussion. I was hoping this session to be more discussion. I do hope there are
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: questions you have, and then we can do the discussion. So, just to summarize, there are still challenges. One thing is groups parameter, space, heat mod parameter space.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Model classification itself is very challenging. How do you do the proper classification? There can be differences in that, but those differences, we… I mean, everything can be changed. How do you do the classification? Somebody can create the PR, this is a better… so this should be discussed.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: How do we account for uncertainties in these excluding plots? That's a major challenge, because each analysis, you know, combates these excluding plots with certain uncertainties, certain compliance levels, 90%, 95%, whatever.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The way we handle uncertainties in the collateral space is completely different than how it is done in the cosmology analysis and so on. There are huge differences in that. How do you unify that? How do you put them together? And at the same time, we also need to be very, very careful with what and how we are excluding a region.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So that's something which needs to be very careful, but these are some of the challenges which I cannot tackle myself. It would be contribution and involvement of the experts.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Who really know these things and, you know, so that we can build a transition.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Off.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: How this should be decorated.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Oh, thank you very much.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: How is the discussion going to be its flow?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The question's first thing. Okay, so Joe. Yeah, so first of all, can I just say I absolutely love this? This is one of the most
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: amazing things that I've seen in my
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, relatively early career, but I mean, like, this is, like, the kind of thing that I wish that I could have had as, like, a PhD student, or, like, when I'm writing a grant proposal, is, like, this sets context for kind of everything in one place, and I think it's just absolutely incredible. So, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I'm interested in the model description part, because, I mean, so you have, like, these, you know, I mean, you're kind of scrolling past it pretty quick, so I didn't get to see exactly what's involved in there, but you have, like, you know, nice little, like, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: bits of, like, the Lagrangian for, like, the particular model, and then you give, like, a little bit of context around it. Is… is there, like, a sort of…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Like, extra data that could tell you something like, okay, this is, like, all the information that you need to have leading up to, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, if I wanted to, like, run a simulation, like, if I wanted to do, like, look for a fermionic absorption
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: of dark matter in my detector. It was done in, like, a xenon-based detector, but I want to look at it for, like, helium, or for argon, or something like that. Is there something like that where, like, in the model description, it has, like, all the information that you need
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Up until that point where you have, like… this is basically everything that you need from the theory side for you to chuck it into some sort of simulation so that you can…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Run the same analysis, or run, like, an expected limit on this particular
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, model, but in my detective. Is there something like that, or… I mean, no, I mean, we don't have it, but it would be great, to have you on this, and now we can build on the job on this and have inputs on this. But yeah, this makes sense, I mean, and
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It's a great idea, and we should try to find out a way to how to integrate it and put it. Yeah, because that's, like, I mean, when you want to, like, have…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, so let's say, like, an experiment like DarkSide that's, like, kind of building up right now, and they want to have, like, you know, like, you know, put together all of these, like, studies to say, okay, like, this is where we expect to be for, like, all these different dark matter candidates that are not wimps.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But are… they kind of have this, like, unique sensitivity, too, because they're maybe slightly lighter than WIMPs, but, like, the whole of the community for direct protection has focused on wimps for so long.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right? This is exactly the kind of resource that, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: If that… if that functionality is added, like, you… you make so much
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, you make so many more experiments so much more productive, and I think it's just… the potential for it is amazing if it's… if it's already in there. I mean, so yeah, I mean, we have a prototype, but I mean, these things need to be there, and I mean, it needs, you know, some certain thoughts, input from the community, effort as well.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so on. So, I mean, this is something which… it's… I mean, this can also be a good contribution, as such, from the PPD side to the whole community of this. That's okay, because we do have expertise.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And we do talk to experts, we have our own experiments based on that. That can be something which can be a very solid PBE for their contribution posted there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so, I mean, yeah, as for the classification, I mean, I brainstormed a bit with James as well, from our department, and so mainly, in the beginning, we had this mainly interaction portal framework, so for example, BC1 to BC11, I mean, how the BSN classification has been done.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: how those relate to each other and so on. There's something which is this afterthought, and then what made sense for us right now is to put, like, sort of this sort of classification, but yeah, I mean, everything needs to be added and changed, and…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All the data needs to go in there.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So these are, like, all the different BC11. And there are, like, you will see there are…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: experiments which produce plots which cover multiple of these classifications in a way. So, there are, for example, parameters which relate to different couplings.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And these two companies can be of two different models, and how do you relate that? How do you translate those experiment reserves into different things? So that's something which
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, we can manage that. But yeah, I mean, I absolutely agree, please, let's continue to follow up, I mean, we can follow up with the discussion, and so that we can… Also, if I have… if I have time to spare, I would love to work on that. I think that's…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, like, I would kill for that. Yeah, thank you. I think James is gonna… if he wants to have… Yes, James, has a raised hand. He should go.
James Frost: Alright, I mean, some of this, some of this has already come up, of course. I mean, clearly this is… I'm very…
James Frost: very fond of this. I think it's got a huge amount of use for colliders and cross-community discussion. I mean, from the collider perspective, it's a bit like a natural successor to what was DM tools at Brown, which is where a lot of this kind of thing was stored, I know.
James Frost: a good chunk of the direct detection stuff is at Slack, so we should probably think about the overlap and interface there a bit more.
James Frost: Your comment about the model classification is right, I think. I mean, I think there's no perfect way, and there's always going to be some…
James Frost: some degree of overlap or kind of messy interface is inevitably here.
James Frost: Partly because different communities use similar but different models, and partly because they… they think about them in a different way, even when they're the same model, so you kind of need to
James Frost: maybe not just provide the Lagrangian, but also provide… we need to provide the kind of…
James Frost: Sufficient information to contextualize for the different communities, and this is, of course, One of the reasons for…
James Frost: for trying to bring the communities together, and PPD is a good place for that, I think.
James Frost: Joey, your comment also reminded me, I mean, I think there's…
James Frost: There is a longer-term discussion on, kind of, how…
James Frost: how far to take this. I mean, you could also push it in the… you know, how…
James Frost: you know, clearly we could link to the… the LHC Dark Matter Working Group's repository of bad graph models, which is probably the
James Frost: the collider equivalent of the dark detection, things you would want, but you might also want to push it more into the, you know, can we reinterpret, or can we,
James Frost: do we have the information to tweak the… to tweak the models a little bit? You know, to say, if I tweaked my benchmark, or if I varied the assumptions, how would these things move? There's a lot of scope for extending it in that direction, but that, of course, would require quite a bit more thought.
James Frost: But I, like you, I'm very excited about the,
James Frost: about the thing here. I mean, I'm gonna plug my doodle poll here for… for discussions, for things that cut across… dark matter, things that cut across communities, and this is… this is clearly one of them, as Bridge knows, I'm a fan.
James Frost: Alright, that's my not particularly well-organized list of thoughts, sorry guys.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Thanks, thanks, James. So, just to put, I mean, the first time I presented this to the public was, this week only. On… on Monday, we had to document a UK meeting. So, I presented there where you had non-provider people as well as the provider. So, feedback has been good.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And let's see how we can follow up on…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: All that, and how you can have more contribution.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I was wondering what your thoughts on backward compatibility were, so let's say there are, like, a thousand models already in the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then you add another model, which then adds a new category, and that means that that particular category will then be added to all of those existing models, which is going to do a lot of work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So… How are you thinking of tackling such?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: issue with respect to previous versions and so on. I mean, we… you meant to say that in this classification, we have a new model which we add up
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: then…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And that introduces a new classification, yeah. That introduces a new classification, then you add the classification as well. It's quite possible, I mean, so… but for that, I mean, if you read the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: meeting, they did quite a good job of classifying, like, I don't know, hundreds of models into these 11 categories, but that is mainly only the portal framework models.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, yeah…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: in these 11 categories which are there. So, you can, based on the coupling in the mass and then certain correlation between these models, you can classify, have this classification. So from BC1 to BC11, there is a classification. So.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, community from the phenology side is also attempting to sort of have it in a coherent classification of different models, but it's… I mean, it's done in these different pillows. For example, the beyond-collateral buffing group is not necessarily interacting with all the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, other cosmologists and so on, in terms of classifications and so on. So, I mean.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This is… this has to be tested by the community, and how classification should be, etc, etc. We can only, like, you know, base whatever this is based on the inputs and how users want to be… want it to be.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Cheers, thank you.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Sorry, did you have a follow-up? Mine is just more of a comment. I'd like to echo, again, what Jay said, that I think this is… and I've said it to you before when you first showed it to me, this is fantastic, and I think it's a really useful tool.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I would, though, like to, you know, we need to caveat with this that we need to be careful, right? Like, your last slide of, you know, we need to make sure that we interpret systematics, or sorry, uncertainties consistently in, you know, 95% to 90%, because we don't want to oversimplify this, right? This is a very complicated… all experiments do things slightly differently, slightly different modifications. We don't want to just
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: paint a picture that, oh, it's all excluded, because then what the funding agency comes from, it's like, why am I going to fund you? Because it's already excluded, right? So we have to be a little bit careful about how we present this, and not oversimplifying the situation. So, this is just more of a… maybe,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Sorry, James, this is a comment for you, when we're sort of thinking about the discussions moving forward, I think this is something that we have to, like, have as on the agenda, is the things that we discuss at least.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: cautions, or whatever. Exactly, yeah, we just need to be careful, like, you know, said, we need to be careful about what we're doing. That's exactly… Absolutely. Yeah. And actually, I have a follow-up on that, too, because, I mean, when we're talking about, like… like, I can name an example right now of where there's tension, even just
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: within the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: WIMP dark matter direct detection community. So you have, like, an experiment like LZ, which, I mean, I was on LZ, and then you're, you know, having this competition with an experiment like Xenon and Anton, who report their WIMP limits in fundamentally different… maybe not… maybe not fundamentally different ways, but, like, there's, like, you know, an agreed-upon
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: sort of community paper that says, okay, yeah, you should do this thing where you, where you, like, report your limit and then power constrain it at minus… at the, at the minus one sigma, like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, like, these are, you know, decisions that have been made, but then Xenon and Ton kind of went in a slightly different direction more recently, and, like, so when…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you're trying to look at, you know, their plots, or, like, you know, like, if you're going into, like, you know, like, you know, wink direct detection, dark matter, and then you're seeing, you know, curves from, you know, LZ and, and, and from Xenon, like, they're going to be, like, you have to, sort of.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: sort of have that understanding when you're looking at this.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: or when you're looking at a plot that shows all of their limit curves, which is exactly the point that you were trying to make, I think, right? Like, you need to contextualize it. But I'm wondering if, like, maybe when you're drawing
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: these curves, right? So you have, like, a sort of,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You know, like, a shaded-in region that says, okay, like, this was the… these are the limits that have been…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: sort of placed by all of these collaborations. But if then you were to have maybe, like, a total, like, you know, like, this is… this has been what's been ruled out, and then have, like, a scale for, like, you know, the alpha setting on those fill values.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you kind of scale that according to the confidence level. Like, so basically, when you're talking about Xenon, who, like, power constraints at their median, right, then, you know, that's a slightly stronger constraint. So it doesn't go down as far, but it's gonna maybe be, like, a thicker color on this plot.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then when you take a total, then it'll just be, like, you kind of have this, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: kernel density estimated curve that has, like, the shading is, like, to what degree of confidence has it been ruled out? Yeah. Which…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, it might contextualize things a little bit better in one spot. I'm glad that this session is being recorded, because then I will be able to go through a comment on this.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then come back to you on this, and then follow up and answer that we can implement this. Even then, for example, I went through this plot, so on the question of.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: how these companies are represented. So, for example, in this case of Epsilon.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: there are papers which had epsilon squared, there are papers which had, like, one Rubrover epsilon, I mean, different logarithmic scale, or some different scales which are there, and they were not, like, translatable easily. And that's… you have to read through the paper, read through the text, and then try to understand. But now.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: paper data is not still… I mean, there's still a lot of papers. There are some… I mean, Collider papers who are putting the data, fraud data, in the… in the help data portal, but a lot of data is not there. Yes. In theory. I had to put in some tools through which you accept the data out of the PDF,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But then also, you know, check it. So, I mean, yeah, this is… these are the things which we can, like, really solve with having a… So what you're saying is we should write an LLM? Universal, yeah. Universal, just chat GPT discussion. We can have universal rotations and so on. But yeah, thanks. Yeah, I agree. More questions?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I think it's another comment, yeah, and another thing to also, like, we need to also make this clear that this is always, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: it's always, like, a benchmark model, right? Like, so… like, even, for example, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, liquid argon, is not, sensitivity… not sensitive to spin dependence, right? Because it has no nuclear spin. But that's only when you're comparing the benchmark model of the leading term. But actually, if you consider loop terms, there is some spin dependence, and some experiments might actually be sensitive to that. So, it's always also… you've got to make it clear, I think, when you're…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: sending exclusion curves that, you know, it's always with respect to a benchmark, and it's not just saying we're not sensitive to any manner at all in that respect, it's just compared to this model. So, maybe this is already in here, like, quite explicitly, but just also another comment that we need to think about. We just need to trend a little bit carefully, I think, when we're bringing together everything, you know. Any limit which I put in there, I don't want to be just putting it in there. I would like…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: to create a merge request where people are reviewing it. People are reviewing it, somebody is clicking on, yes, this looks good, merge it, and there's a proper process to that. This is why, I mean, I have not filled up all the plots, I've just kept one as a…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, as a prototype, so that people can put in, and then somebody merges… somebody reviews it. There's a conversation about it, which is recorded.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yep.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: at the… I mean, on Zoom.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So this process of, reviewing, being very familiar with that process for reviewing urge requests,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That usually requires
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a decision about who makes those choices. So, how are you… are you looking to… are you going to start by making all those choices, or are you going to… I don't like to make choices. I want these choices to be made by the community, so I would like to have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I don't know, working group of people who are developers and maintainers of this, consisting people who are genuologists, who understand models, and so on and so forth, making their decision, and going, reviewing through that in that particular area of expertise, so somebody who's expert in that model or this model. So.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I, I particularly would not want to make that call, because that… that…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That, you know, gives up the whole idea of open and collaborative and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, yeah. Somehow, I mean, so you're not going to be a benevolent dictator for life for this system, like, absolutely would not want to. This is, I mean, this is hosted outside under a proper official project, not my personal repository in any way whatsoever. So, even if I'm not there tomorrow, the project can be
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Or, I mean, there can be multiple people who can be owner of that project and…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Similarly, the GitHub repo, the GitLear repo, they're all public, it's not MDMI ownership.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You somehow have to recruit people for these roles. Is this the start to that, or is that this… I would like this to be driven by community. No, no, but I need people… okay, you need people to volunteer. I mean, what I can do is, okay, take more students in the summer entirely, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: go through the prods, the Global Olympics, which are already there, and then push them, because then I would have a reference that, okay, this will be taken from there, and so on. Something like that. So I build up more, and so that it attracts more community engagement, and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Did you get a good response, at DM UK for this? I think it was a very good response. I, I was, so, for example.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Catherine from Escape, from register, she also was very encouraging and applauded and would like to put in some resources from the Escape and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Hopefully, And,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And so, I think it depends how those comments and, translates into action, so that's something which has to be seen, but I think, probably appropriate. Sorry, just, James said that he has his hand up.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: James, go ahead.
James Frost: just to add, perhaps, to Tim's comment, I mean, for some reg… for some areas, this exists
James Frost: better than others, I think, right? I mean, for the Kleider direct detection interface, we kind of have documents outlining how the translation from one area to another is done.
James Frost: how to go from kind of a coupling space for us to a scattering cross-section, or from a coupling space to the epsilons that the light-dark matter use. I think…
James Frost: Probably you want this kind of… caveat references built in.
James Frost: You're certainly right that there are, kind of, conventions within communities, but…
James Frost: Between conventions, those communities… those… between communities, that isn't always the case, or there is some…
James Frost: tension where people have different conventions. I don't… I don't think that…
James Frost: Bridge wants to do all that. It should be community-driven, but it probably needs to be wider than just…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You know, the individual communities.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yep.
James Frost: since…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's half…
James Frost: Problem, in that…
James Frost: one of the reasons why… why everything doesn't exist on the same… in the same space naturally already, to some degree. And this is before we start thinking about the cosmological astrophysical side, which I'm not really expert enough to comment on.
James Frost: But clearly that's… Difficult… that's a trickier area, both from… Connections and from, you know.
James Frost: Conventions with things like systematics.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah, so just, I kind of…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: following up on, like, the community engagement, I mean, is the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: is the ideal situation where you have… okay, like, so this is open to the entire, you know, to the entire community, or all of the communities, I suppose. And then whenever there's, like, a publication, so, like, the second it hits the archive, in an ideal world.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: representatives, like, maybe the people who wrote the paper within those collaborations, like, publish on the archive, but then also, you know, have a separate, you know, blurb with their, you know, their data, and then they just upload it directly, and then…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: That's exactly… yeah. I mean, they don't be able to… I mean, if they don't want to upload it here, they want to order it and have, like, a portal, that's also fine. We can have, like, ways in which that creates automatic… Or, yeah, like that, you can kind of make it as smooth as possible, because, I mean, like, I can imagine that if, you know, a collaboration
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the size of… or, again, I'm not speaking from within the direct detection community link.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a collaboration the size of, like, LZ, DarkSide, Xenon, or XLZD in the next generation. Like, if you… if you start, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like… interfacing with them now. Well, we have… we have Ashley here, who's on our side.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, you know, I can certainly try and, like, you know, talk to people on LZ if there's interest in getting people to kind of just make this a standard thing. So once you get the ball rolling with some of the bigger players, then maybe, you know, others will follow suit in the future, and then it kind of just, like, it gradually becomes a standard thing.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, like, are you, like…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, are… are you reaching out to… to… I mean, I hope we… I mean, we have as broad a discussion as possible in the PPD and so on. Yeah. And then we, sort of.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: see how we reach out to, for example, we would like to have… I mean, we have proposed, and hopefully it would be there in the next year, early, next year in January, February,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a dedicated discussion with the LST, dark matter community, and convenience, and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It was also mentioned, so for example, last month, there was a…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: LHCBSM working group meetings, and in that also, this was mentioned, by one of the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the person from the LLP side who presented in the, in the talk. So, Guy, I don't know if you know. So, it's there in the, in the, in the, in her slides that, as an effort from Raoul, that, okay, we are working on this.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Alrighty.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, yeah, this would be something, how we reach out to how we increase engagement and so on this, something that we have to pay it down.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, I kind of think it kind of has to be through word of mouth at this point, like, there's just got to be, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, foot soldiers who are, like, I'm happy to volunteer to be one of those people, because again, I think this is awesome. Please, avoid… please give these talks to wherever you give your guide to, so that they can affect more communication.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the students aren't be connected, or… No, but… He couldn't connect, he, he had moved to, yeah, it would have been nice to hear. I had messaged him, and then I asked him why that he wouldn't be able to connect, so…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Right, go ahead.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yes, Tim? So, having been a bit involved with head data in the past, I think it's a very useful platform for storing data. I guess the difference, the thing that this does that head data doesn't do, apart from the interface making it easy to use, is having a standard format for
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Or a standard way of representing
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: the limits. And there you have each claw, each paper having their own fraud data. And, so they, they have the data there, but it's in different formats, they, and,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, I'm just wondering, are you, as well as showing the plot.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: can you provide the… or the underlying data in a way that you can download, download it all, and so, add your data and download it. Okay. So you can have all this in JSON form. Because, yeah, I'm thinking that we then have… because
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: at the moment, this is plotting things, it's probably not suitable directly for a publication, plotted like this, but I'm imagining you come with a new measurement.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you want to show all the other measurements on the same thing. We've done this many times in Atlas. So you, you want to…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: if you can download all of these, and then it makes that job of producing those plots much easier. Maybe later on, you can have a… make a publication
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: quality plot. So, this is why the whole data and reporters, so you create your own branch, you test with that, you upload your data, see how, you know, this measurement would come in the global limits.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: It's up to you how confident you are, whether you're putting that in the global limit, but we can provide all the references, text, et cetera, which is needed.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you can use that for publication, if you like, because then everybody has to… and this is also one thing I was… when I was doing this work, I had spent months in trying to figure out some of these critical traditions, tools, which didn't go out most of them.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: To try to create these,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: these limits. So, for example, these limits, how exactly I fit it in this extruding? I mean, so these are zoomed-in regions and so on. How these tools work, I spent very months to create these plots.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because some of the scripts were not there, and so on and so forth. So that would be also an objective. Okay, if somebody has, for example, a tracking algorithm, that would increase the sensitivity of
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: one particular model, or that model that sensitively maps to the global, cream work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: attest to that. You can have your own branch support it, and then, you know, you can be sure that how this is how it affects and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: We would… for some reports, we would like to have people to upload only the published results.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Which are, you know, already published, and so on, so that… that… that's a standard.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: But you could have a merge request, which is basically, these are the results of my experiment, and at the moment, it's just my expected limits, but when it gets accepted, it's the actual ones. That's something which you have to also figure out how to do that. You know, how do you have separate pages for that, or how do you do that? We have to see.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Clearly.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yes, so, thanks so much, that's interesting stuff. I'm just wondering about…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Comparing to, other types of efforts. So, in the past, variously, there have been efforts to bring data together in various forms.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, hept data is one thing, and, you know, Rivet is something that was pushed for a very long time, but even there, where you might say it's rather easier.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: to get things together. There was quite a lot.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The effort that went into trying to get people to…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Take up this… this type of thing, and… and it's…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: There's a lot more Anatolis than
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: CMS, because some of the stuff came from… from within Athos.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So I just wondered what's…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: You've thought about in those contexts, what you might have learned there. And then, in addition, There are other…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: there are many tools around that bring things together to give you combined limits, or give phenomenological tools to say, okay, given all these, results, how does this affect the parameter space of my new model? And there are lots of tools around that do that sort of thing.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So how…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: What's your, yeah, comment on that sort of picture? So, this is something which I thought a great detail, and this is why it was important for me, when I was doing that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: that, okay, why would people would like to have a place like that, which is sort of open? And it was important for me to have sort of an address which is universally acceptable in the sense. I mean, if I had posted this on some github.io or whatever.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: it would not be so unifying, in a sense. But I thought that, okay, having this particular thing, I mean, it gives it a sort of a…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Nothing that sounds great, but, you know, all the other stuff hosted by Durham, so… Of course. So, I hope that would be basically something that you would then, and then on the second question is.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a lot of tools are there, mostly, I mean, from Toris Committee and so on, mostly offline tools, you download these scripts there, like, now, Terist Committee is what they have started doing, where they also update, upload their scripts on Genodo and all that, and so on.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: These scripts, they are absolutely important, and they should be integrated in the CNACD pipelines to make this whole process automated.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So they definitely make sense, they are important, and these people who are working on them are the experts of that, but those scripts should be
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: accept it, and be part of a common repository, and integrate in a CADD pipeline, so even their job is easier. So then, in the next conference like this, for example, this happened in the, the FIP workshop which we did, Gaia, she produces a lot of these,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: FIP plots, global e-time plots. She has some scripts, and so on. But even then, the amount of work, for example, communicating with each experiment, having that particular result, using this script, being translated into the global plot, that was, like, months of work.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And this should be automated. I mean, it should not be… should not be the custodian of all the work which goes into it. It's a lot of work to automate. Putting that script online in this system such that all the input data is… gets analyzed, and then, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Cicd generates a plot, which we then
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: for, you know, review and budget. This project is not problematic. The problem part is to have the experts engage with us.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And basically make them understand that, you know, you still have your ownership of your work, you still have the ownership of your, you know, scripts, but it's good if you engage and then, you know, integrate this in this way so that your job also gets easier.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So… I'm grinning. So this is the challenging part, yeah. And have you talked to any of these, theorists? I did. I spoke with a variety of them. Everybody comes with this, like, huge list of problems which we have.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And, and…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I try to find this common minimum program, so, you know, common minimum thing where we all can agree, and then take it from there, you know? Yeah, I think that's a good comment, minimal thing, yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because one thing that's useful is just having
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: The collection together of all of the results, so that you can all… just to listen, you know, just to listen to papers that are relevant.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Because that's already a task we have to go through in order to find that out, so…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah, focusing on succeeding with minimal things.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then grand future plans can… Yeah, great, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, exactly. This is why we,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Why? I mean, we thought that, okay, could we have… could we have a prototype? Because, I mean, before even making a prototype, I talked to some theorists, giving them sort of my idea and vision of, okay, maybe we should have something like that. They would dump, like, 100 questions of that, which is, like, you know, not sort of… I'm not in a position to answer that.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, you have to, like, okay, let's build something, do something, maybe that… then it gets used to.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah. Can I just… and just sort of follow up on, like, the sort of… what's the minimal amount? I mean, like, you have that nice little loop that you were showing at the beginning, where you have, like, theory… like, theorists put together a, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: a picture. Experimentalists then take it and then produce a limit, and then phenomenologists
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: take those limits and then put together this, right? And then at the center of all of it can be actually… so maybe, like, this tool can move to maybe more as a central repository, where, like, again, like, if you're trying to sell this to, like, theorists or experimentalists or phenomenologists, it's just, like.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: This tool makes everyone more productive. Theorists can have
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: their models tested by experiments much more quickly. Like, again, I, like, as I can recall my own experience trying to put together a fermionic dark matter,
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: model for LZ, and it was a tremendous pain, because I could not get my hands on, like, I think it was an ionization form factor that was needed in order for me to calculate the
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: scattering cross-section, which I needed to get the…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: recoil energy spectrum, which I needed to get my model to run through a statistical analysis, right? So if I had that one piece of information, I could have had a paper out by now, but to this day, it's not… it's not done, because we had to do all of this extra work twice.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: When I, when, if it was here, I could have just been like, boom, I'm gonna take all of this citation to these theorists, who else put it together, right, and then now we have this result that the phenomenologists can then use to put together a global synthesis. It's just like…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, if people are gonna be throwing up problems, like, that's… like, that's the sell that I think… like, if anyone has a problem with that picture, I don't think they're…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: doing the scientific community any… like, they need to change their perspective. Like… like, and I think, like, there's… there's…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I think, at this point, pretty solid, like, well-established, you know, bits of information that you need as an experimentalist to put together an analysis. Like I said, like this ionization form factor, I wouldn't have needed that if I just had, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, a nice, you know, set of recoil spectra to do that. So, like, you know, like, a theorist can sort of generalize their own work, but here, experimentalists could just go, right? Because it's, you know, if you have, like, a framework where it says, okay, like, this is what experimentalists mean.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: theorists just put it to… like, get it together, put it in there, and then… and then let them have at it. I then, you know.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Like, that's kind of just… like, it's… the expectation is set right from the beginning.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And then you don't have to have, like, you know, this crazy…
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: like, saga. So I think it's, like, you can… you can determine what those minimal things are by just kind of thinking, okay, like, you know, what's the, like, this is the loop.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: you know, what's the… you know, what do, like, experimentalists need? What do phenomenologists need? And then just have that pipe in, and then that's… that's your answer.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I think, like, figuring that out isn't gonna be… I don't think it would be as difficult as one might think, if you just kind of keep this in mind. Yeah.
James Frost: This feeds back into what I was talking about, about being able to translate from one area to the other, right, Joe?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Great, any other questions?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Any closing remarks from Speaker from James?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: So, I mean, yeah, one thing is, a lot of us have seen an offer, the mail from James, so I hope that we can continue this discussion into
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: I mean, let's see, if we organize lunch or whatever, so that, I mean, we can see how we can progress and do and reach out and…
James Frost: Is it?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: And I think you've just…
James Frost: you're firmly on the agenda. I've made some notes, so there'll be a… we can follow up the main themes when I get round to arranging that, which looks like it'll be after the new year now.
James Frost: Which is perhaps not surprising, given it's… given the time it is now.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Very good, on that note. Thank you so much, yeah.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Okay, so when's the plan too long?
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: Yeah, if Bridge is going for lunch, you can join as well, for informal discussion.
STFC-RAL-CR03 R61: When it's up with the wall.